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Name:	HTMLman -	Reply
Subject:	40 acres, APC lease on Lake
Date:	4/3/2007 8:05:49 PM

40 acres deeded, with an APC lease on Lake. I have never seen anything like this size of land offered before with the exception of 96 Acres for $3,250,000 on hy 63, undeveloped.

The owner told me he was going to put it on the market soon. He has a friend who is a listing Agent that sells all his real estate. I just might be interested to make an offer before its signed with the Agent. Please don't call him or he'll be mad at me for shooting off my big mouth.

What is a place like this worth?

URL: 40 acres on the lake.

Name:	au67 -	Reply
Subject:	40 acres, APC lease on Lake
Date:	4/3/2007 8:59:08 PM

Sellers normally put a price on something they are trying to sell. I'm familiar with the location of this property and know why the lease is only $100+. When APCo developed this area, this lot was not in the original survey because of lack of water. You can verify this by clicking on some of the links. As demand for property on the lake has increased over the years, I assume this lot was made available. I guess the owner is thinking in the millions for the 40 acres (38 acres in the plat directory I'm looking at) and house because of the "connection" to the lake.

Name:	HTMLman -	Reply
Subject:	40 acres, APC lease on Lake
Date:	4/3/2007 9:03:10 PM

Sorry, he got calls and took it down.

Name:	Feb -	Reply
Subject:	Not for Me to Judge
Date:	4/3/2007 9:13:52 PM

I just would not want a large spread of property to maintain. I guess if it were all forest then it might make a nice backdrop. I prefer footage of water frontage, and the water as my front yard. A reasonable lot of 1/2 to 3/4's of and acre will do. Give it width and not so much depth of lot.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	Don't pick this realtor
Date:	4/3/2007 10:01:22 PM

If you want to research land / lake values, feel free to use the "property search" on my site - lakemartinvoice.com.

I don't know who the listing agent will be, but let's hope it's not one of the ones in the below link.

URL: Lake Martin Sellers- Don't Pick This Realtor

Name:	roswellric -	Reply
Subject:	Don't pick this realtor
Date:	4/4/2007 8:50:36 AM

Generally pretty darn good advice.

What do you think of Zillow.com?

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	I only recently heard of
Date:	4/4/2007 9:49:52 AM

Zillow.com. Looked up my daughter's house (it's on the market right now) and it was listed as a 2 br/1 ba, 880 s.f. with a tax value of $99k. About 15 years ago, the house was updated to 3 br/2 ba, and its current tax value (according to the little pink card) is $160k.

I looked up my own house and those numbers were way off as well, and the description didn't include a total renovation (from 5 small to 4 large bedrooms, and 4 rather than 3 bathrooms) in 1993.

It's an interesting site, but I'd take it's information with a box of Morton's.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	Zillow
Date:	4/4/2007 3:38:28 PM

I think Zillow works the best in neighborhoods that were:

a.) built en masse by the same builder (therefore would have similar finishes) at the same time
b.) have similar lot sizes and grades (to remove lot's value variance as much as possible)
c.) are 2 to 5 years old (old enough to be in the tax records but not too old to have a lot of second owner upgrades)
d.) located in cities / counties with really good tax records that are online and free
e.) located in MLS areas that share real time sold prices data to Zillow.

If you have all of the above, Zillow gets within about 10%. But then again you could probably get within 10% by riding around in the car. once you start (at e moving to a) removing the above, it gets less and less accurate.

For these reasons we're a long way off from having Zillow to be accurate on Lake Martin. Even if we have all of the above, the lot price is so important on the lake, I doubt if I ever would trust it 100%.

URL: Lake Martin Voice

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	Zillow
Date:	4/4/2007 4:01:13 PM

I don't think it's possible to run comps at the Lake - appraisals by certified, licensed appraisers bear absolutely no relation to the market price a piece of property might bring. I learned that first hand.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	A ? to Harborcon
Date:	4/4/2007 4:17:24 PM

I thought your post was interesting. So, just curious, let's say you were President of a bank in the business of loaning money to folks. Let's say these folks want to buy a home / lot on Lake Martin. Let's say they tell you that they want to borrow $600,000 on a home / lot on XYZ Street. If eschew appraisers, and you don't look at comparable sales, how would you go about determining if it's a good loan to make?

How would you describe your valuation methods to your bank's stockholders?

Curiously,

John C

URL: Lake Martin Voice

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	A ? to Harborcon
Date:	4/4/2007 5:58:54 PM

Well, I'm not the President of a bank (although I know a couple), and I don't make loans so your hypothetical doesn't work for me. However, I have bought/sold 12 houses between 1964 and 1994, and have had appraisals made on each. Sold three by word of mouth and used the appraisals to determine the price for each. These were in residential neighborhoods, not resort property. I also own a beach house, which I had appraised before I purchased it, and was able to get it for about $20k less than asking, based upon the appraisal (for which the appraiser said there just were no good comps). My point is that Lake Martin is an anomaly; it isn't a neighborhood in the usual sense (although the folks are certainly neighborly). It is my guess that, so far as Lake Martin is concerned, the realtors have a better sense of a given property's value (and by that, I mean fair market value - what it would bring in an open market) than do appraisers basing their values on comparables. How can one compare a property at the south end of the lake with another miles and miles away, perhaps in a different county? I am a firm believer in realtors - believe they earn their money most of the time. Sometimes they may get lucky and make a quick deal and some quick big money, but it seems to me that would even out for those agonizing takes-forever deals with small return. And thank God I don't have to explain anything to the bank stockholders! I'd rather they explain the dividends (or lack thereof) to me! Finally, I'm just thrilled that I have a deed to a little piece of the lake and that I'm not looking to buy one these days. I wouldn't have a prayer!

Name:	HTMLman -	Reply
Subject:	it appraised a bit low
Date:	4/4/2007 8:36:28 PM

Thank ya'll for the input. When the link went down, I thought it would end the trread,

I know he paid $225,000 on a 2003 contract. He then built a ~ $200,000 house and about 40K of dock work and other imrovments. It then appraised for the grand sum of $250,000 as per three comparible sales. They were off water sales, but 40ish acres.

This is why the appraisers don't work. If there are not three places on the lake with lake frontage, then the comparible sales method breaks down. The cost basis did not work also as the appriaser could not justify the over $5000/acre price he paid.

As above it is easy if you are looking at three subdivision sales with very comparable houses. This I learned in School.

Thanks one and all for the help.

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	it appraised a bit low
Date:	4/5/2007 10:41:25 AM

I personally don't think the appraisal is worth the paper and ink it took to print it, but not based on the valuation. If the 40 acres are deeded but the waterfront is APC lease I don't think they can be joined as one parcel. I would think that you would have legal issues. IMHO it should be appraised and sold seperately. The owner could mandate that BOTH must be purchased together, but as seperate sales.

I would be interested to see that appraisal. To compare off water to waterfront would require a HUGE adjustment, and any adjustment of more than 10% of value is surely not going to go thru the scrutiny of the underwriter without being questioned. It may be allowed, but would require tons of data to back up the appraisal/adjustment.

I would be interested to see what some of the lawyers that read the forum have to say. One hypothetical that comes to mind.... if they are sold as one and the owner defaults on the APC lease, does APC get the 40 acres too?

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	So just how far
Date:	4/5/2007 11:05:09 AM

"off water" must a house/lot be to significantly reduce the value of the propety? At the beach, property is referred to as "tiered" as it is distanced from the shoreline. First tier is waterfront, second, third, etc., all the way to the roadway. Anything other than first tier, but on the water side of the road is considered "Gulfside." So, if you must walk past another house (between you and the lake) to get to your dock/pier, is that still off water? And how detrimental is that to your property value?

Another one of those anomalies...

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	So just how far
Date:	4/5/2007 11:32:49 AM

You are comparing apples and oranges. Most beachfront is actually public property with a few exceptions. Therefore your 'tiered' property has value by proximity to the public features. I am not aware of any such property on the lake. I know that some developments are now doing off water with access, but it is still not the same because the waterfront is NOT public, it is a licence or easement. The comps are also easy because they are right there in the development.

BUT, with that being said, 'water view' lots bring a premium anywhere in the country, even without access because folks will pay to look at water, even if it a permanent mud hole...lol. My niece, who is a licensed appraiser, bought a house in Peachtree City a while back. It had an adjustment of several thousand dollars, for "water view" because you could see the lake across the street. She was sharp enough to challenge it and bring the price down because that 'view' was only in the winter when the leaves aren't a factor. She argued, correctly that the summer view was not 'water view'.

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	Dunno about your beachfront
Date:	4/5/2007 1:00:31 PM

property, Lakeman, but at Orange Beach, by statute, the waterfront property owner owns the sand all the way to the mean high tide line. And some of those owners are downright nasty if you pitch your umbrella and chair anywhere in front of their houses. One even erected a gazebo and posted "NO TRESSPASSING" signs along his property lines from his bulkhead down to the water. Sadly, all of those things, along with his duplex, were ingested by Ivan a few years ago (sob). But lots of those folks are very territorial about their beach and, if they had their way, would require those of us who have "gulfside" property to wade in the surf when we walk along "their" beach.

My question about the lake was aimed at property not in any development (e.g., Stillwaters, etc., where I've never even been), but rather those random areas of the lake where houses have been built one behind the other on separate lots, rather than side by side, but where both have deeded access to the water; one along and parallel to the lake, and the other merely a walkway access.

I am just always interested when all the forum folks start discussing property values at the lake, and how one arrives at the dollar figure. It may be apples and oranges, but they are both fruit, right? Not like comparing apples and, say, basketballs... he he.

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	A couple of points....
Date:	4/5/2007 3:48:50 PM

1. I am NOT Lakeman and I thank God daily for it.

2. Do you know the meaning of the words MOST, FEW, and EXCEPTIONS as used in the following sentence-- "Most beachfront is actually public property with a few exceptions. "

3. I do not now, nor ever have, nor ever will own beachfront. Dont like it, never will.

4. The situation that you describe does not exist on Lake Martin that I know of.

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	Humble apologies to you
Date:	4/5/2007 5:05:28 PM

LTM, for confusing your name w/LM (must get that new trifocal Rx filled!). And yes, I do have a working knowledge of all those words. Not knowing that your "most" included all coastlines of the US (if it did), and assuming (and yes, I also know the connotation of 'ass-u-me") that you referred to the coast of Alabama, that would encompass only from Alabama Point to the Mississippi line, where the statute I referred to governs. I don't own beachfront property either...yet. But I'm 50' closer than I was a few years ago and they say this year will be a big one for hurricanes, so one never knows, do one...?

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Humble apologies back at you
Date:	4/5/2007 5:34:51 PM

I was little miffed over something else when I made that post. But some points for you to consider. If I did own the sand to the high tide mark I would be just as tenacious about keeping folks off of it. Not because I am an A$$hole ( which is debated regularly among those than know me) but because we live in a litigious society. If I own it, I am responsible for what happens on it. Something bad happens to somebody, even due to their own foolishness and irresponsibility, they still want to sue. And with juries, you NEVER know what will happen. Does McDonalds and hot coffee ring a bell?

Secondly, there is the "I got mine syndrome". I am sure it comes into play with beach property just as it does here on the lake. What I mean is there are some folks that once they acquire their dream, all future development and progress should immediately STOP!! No more condo's, no new subdivisions, no more this or that, and as we have seen lately, certainly no more industry. These folks want to sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor (or inheritance) and look down on all the 'other' people.

There is a lot more property and people off the lake in this county than on it, but some of the ones on the lake would rather these people not have opportunities to better their station in life with good manufacturing jobs. Those folks are only supposed to be around to serve them when they decide to go out to eat or buy groceries, etc. New industry MIGHT pollute the lake and that is unacceptable. Russell has done it but that is OK, he 'gives back' to the lake.

OK, I will step down off my soapbox now.

Name:	Harborcon -	Reply
Subject:	I must admit that
Date:	4/6/2007 11:04:58 AM

I was surprised when I learned about the "mean high tide line" statute. And I expressed that to the Orange Beach City Manager when we discussed it, as it would virtually eliminate any walking/sitting along the waterfront except at low tide! He said that few people make any attempt to enforce it and, as waterfront property there is largely rental property, and the tenants aren't really interested in enforcing property boundaries, it seldom presents a problem. Orange Beach, more and more, caters to the tourist/rental trade (from whence cometh their revenue, I suppose) and has in the last year or so banned any tents, umbrellas, etc., being left on the beach overnight. Property taxes there are ridiculously low (mine are less than $300/year), but I pay $45/month for sewer, water and garbage pick up, even though my water is turned off at the meter when I'm not there, and the only way I can get my garbage picked up is if I take it to the closest street. And there is now a $500 fine for leaving the can on the street, which means that if I am there on a weekend, I have to take the garbage home, because I won't be there on Monday morning to bring the can back after the trash folks empty it.

About five or six years ago, the City Counsel banned any further high-rises and limited structures to 12 or 13 floors. Of course, all those who were "grandfathered" in prior to that legislation are still stacking them higher and higher, and all the old wonderful beach "cottages" are being replaced with towers of glass. I hate 'em. But, to be completely honest, if someone offered me $1 Million for my little piece of sand, I would be hard pressed to refuse it. I am a person of very modest means, and it saddens me that the beautiful areas of our state (and country, for that matter) are gradually being restricted to enjoyment by only those with the wherewithal to pay the premiums. I am luckily blessed to have acquired both my beach and lake properties at a time when they were affordable, and I share both places with friends and family upon request.

I understand and empathize about business, industry, and just plain fun. I have lost about 6' of my lakefront to big waves from jetskis, pontoon and other boats who do not observe a no-wake rule in our relatively narrow slough. I don't own any of those watercraft, but I truly love to ride in/on them. I bitched and moaned about the jetskis until I rode one last year - what fun! And I'd love to have one just to sashay around our slough and neighboring channels. I like to think that I would be more respectful of the lakeshore, however, and not create erosion problems (not everyone has a bulkhead).

I will also admit that I voted against construction of a Super WalMart on the beach road just a few miles from my house. I will continue to drive the 10 miles to the new Target, or to Foley to Home Depot or Lowe's if I need anything. I am grateful for the protection afforded by the Alabama State Park along the beach, and the cabins they rent out on the backwater.

I won't even get into the litigation thing - I've been a paralegal for almost 30 years, so I have an inside track on that one. So many are looking for that "retirement" incident and, unfortunately, too many jurors are willing to give it to them. Certainly I remember the McDonalds lawsuit, and the acid rain on the BMW lawsuit. I must plead ignorance as to what liability there might be for a beachfront owner who is sued by someone who stepped on a jellyfish in front of their house...I might check around with my litigation friends about that (I do divorces and other family law). That's another discussion for another time...

See, there's room on that soapbox for all of us!

Name:	LifeTime Laker -	Reply
Subject:	Nice Rant, I enjoyed it
Date:	4/6/2007 12:17:44 PM

But that was more info than I will EVER need....lol. As I stated, I am not a beach person. A trip every decade or so just to remind me why I hate it is plenty. I may make my 21st century trip this summer though, as my new neighbors have a condo somewhere in that area and have suggested a 'neighborhood trip' this summer. And I love being neighborly!!

What bothers me the most is folks on here claimng to love the lake, but all they talk about is property values and investment. I am a true Lake Lover but with a good bit of river rat in me too. Any water that is not chlorinated or salted will do just fine!! I also am a man of very modest means and was fortunate to find a deal on my place during the last drought year (2000). I am one of those that live up in a slough with 'summer water' that so many on here love to look down upon. I love it!!!!! I grew up spending weekends on the 'big water' in my Dads old double wide, and later years modest cabin. I actually swam to Veazey's Marina once from dads place, but you probably dont know where that is. I like it here with my summer water better. I can go anywhere anyone else can go on the lake and have been places most will NEVER see on the lake.

As for watercraft, give a nice slow pontoon any day. I have ridden them all and will ride a freinds waverunner a couple of times a summer, but only in the middle of the week. Actually I prefer to be on the water at night, quiet, peacefull, fewer people, cooler temps and great stargazing! I really hope you get out of Blue Creek more this summer. There are some amazing sites to see. Pack a lunch and head out one morning and just start riding the shoreline. Always remember to go all the way around a point or curve because more times than not it will open back up into another section of open water. The offer of a guided tour is still open. Enjoy the summer, it is shaping up to be a good as the low water levels will keep many away...lol.

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