| Name: |
woofwoof
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 12:55:31 AM
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This type of incident may be old news to many readers this forum but it was new to me and I think it needs to be told.
Over the 4th of July holiday I decided to take several of my friends in the pontoon down to Acupolco Rock to see people jump. As we came to the narrows just north of the entrance to Blue Creek I stood up to let my girlfriend put more sunscreen on my back. I had been up about 30 seconds when I saw a marine police boat with its lights on coming towards me. When the officers arrived I greeted them with a "how are you doing"; which was not returned. He immediately questioned my sobriety and seemd almost upset to find out that I was the sober driver. He then turned to my friends and seemed equally dejected to discover that they were all in fact 21 or older. After checking my registration he asked about life jackets. When we produced a pile of life jackets he did not believe us when we said that we each had a life jacket plus two throw cushions. We had to hold them in the air and count out loud like elementary schoolers. He then turned to me and told me that he pulled me over because he saw me stand up and noticed that my kill switch was not attached. I showed him it was hooked to my life jacket which was in the drivers chair where I sat. Apparently that was not good enough. He questioned me as to what would happen if somehow I fell out of the pontoon without the switch attached to me. I simply said "I don't know" rather than trying to come up with some excuse or give a sarcastic response. The end result of the experience was a ticket for an improperly attached kill switch and a $150 fine. From the beginning it was obvious that the real reason for the stop was to find a reason to write us a ticket.
I understand that the marine police have a difficult job of patrolling a huge lake when there are so few of them. I also realize that on a holiday weekend their job is doubly tough given the volume of boats and careless behavior of many. I can also see how a pontoon full of 20 somethings looks like a prime candidate for underage drrinking or boating under the influence. However, the way we were treated was rude and disrespectful. We were simply trying to enjoy the lake and were doing so in a responsible way. Rather than being treated as adults we were treated like criminals. A simple warning and a "have a nice day" would have been enough to get me to hook a kill switch to my shorts. Instead I was left with a hefty fine and a resentment of the officers. This is the first time in the 17 years I have been coming to the lakeI that I have been treated like that by law enforcement. The DNR officer out of Manoy Creek who checks me while fishing is always very pleasant and professional and I could not see him being that rude to anyone. If others have had similar experiences with the marine police I hope they report it as I intend to.
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I hope the supervisors at the marine police are reading these comments. I have heard too many similar stories this year and witnessed one first hand. There is no reason for our officers to show disrespect to the public. I'm all for enforcement, but it seems the stories of officers being trivial with citations are mounting. I have great respect for all law organizations, but unfortunately our MP is losing respect with some of the local public.. Obvious offenders of the law should be punished, but some common sense must be used...... and a friendly attitude will go a long way.
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| Name: |
Pontoonfisher
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:01:34 AM
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Follow the laws and you won't get a $150.00 fine.
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| Name: |
Bob
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:13:04 AM
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I agree and have heard too many stories this year about the over zealous MP's. I think that it is important that they have the respect and not just the fear of the public. Right now they are using fear and intimidation as their tactic and represents more a reflection of the youth and immaturity of some of the officers rather than an overall "policy shift". A little mentoring and coaching could go along way...just watch the way Andy Griffith handles things...not Banney Fife :)
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| Name: |
RidgeRider
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| Subject: |
laws
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:16:43 AM
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laws which are enforced without common sense or where they apply them just because they can, is what causes folks to distrust officers. Enforcement can always go to far.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Did you
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:31:49 AM
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consider going to court? From some stories I have heard the magistrate is using come common sense in these kinds of cases and tossing some out. If the judge kept hearing these silly cases I'll bet come changes would be made.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
And BTW
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:34:37 AM
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I didn't think you needed an attached kill switch tether if other people were on board???? Did I miss something?
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| Name: |
8hcap
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:44:00 AM
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If your pontoon is 24' or longer (and it must be if you had 20 people on board) you are not required to have a kill switch attached to your person.
8
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| Name: |
8hcap
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:49:20 AM
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If your pontoon is 24' or longer (and it must be if you had 20 people on board) you are not required to have a kill switch attached to your person.
8
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| Name: |
8hcap
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:50:26 AM
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sorry - I mesread your post - it says 20 somethings - my bad
8
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| Name: |
woofwoof
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| Subject: |
Did you
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:58:01 AM
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Yeah, we are going to court if I cant get it dropped. Im a law student so this may be my first "case". It is really more about vindication than the money at this point.
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| Name: |
woofwoof
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 9:59:12 AM
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The pontoon is only 20 feet long so I guess that doesnt work but thanks anyway.
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| Name: |
Kizma Anuice
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| Subject: |
Did you
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Date:
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7/15/2008 10:23:52 AM
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which county and who is the district court judge. getting things dropped are not as easy as they once were. and it is hard to win this kind of thing in district court.
but you can get a trial de novo in circuit court upon apeal and you get a jury there, if you want it, which you do.
depends on what is worth more to you, principle or time.
when I was in law school and headed to the Masters, I was caught speeding by a bear in the air. I went to trial, because I knew that they would not have the guy from the plane that actually clocked me. After coss on the guy that gave me the ticket, the da had figured my plan and got the judge to grant a continuance in the case. It as rescheduled two months later when I was going to be studying abroad.
The lesson I was taught the judge said is "Don't waste the courts time with trickery"
PS I got sick of the legal system and decided to make an honest living and built a factory.
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| Name: |
seahunt96
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 10:32:03 AM
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I have heard the many complaints about the marine police and I am sure they
are valid but I would like to commend one officer with whom I recently had an
experience. Officer Fuller was very pleasent and respectful. He used common
sense. If all the officers were as pleasant as this man we would not have a
problem on the lake. Hopefully, the other officers will learn from him and deal
with the important problems.
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| Name: |
green,ed
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| Subject: |
Did you
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Date:
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7/15/2008 10:46:31 AM
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| Name: |
green,ed
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| Subject: |
Wasting the court's time.
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Date:
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7/15/2008 10:48:11 AM
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
I would think.....
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Date:
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7/15/2008 10:58:34 AM
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That as a 'law student' you would realize that when the law states attached to your person that that does not include something the person is sitting on. Your first case is a loser IMHO. That argument is about the same as the guys who is charged with doing 70 in a 45 and tells the judge he wasn't doing but 60 so he should be found not guilty, when by his own testimony, he admitted to 'speeding'.
You may catch a break and get it thrown out, but not by using ludicrous arguments to attempt to prove your innocence.
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| Name: |
peruecreek
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 11:14:40 AM
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In addition the MP need to obey the boating regulations themselves. As I was going upriver Sunday evening the MP approached from my left and would not give way even though I had the right of way. Whether or not he was trying to get close to me to see if I was in violation of some regulation is up for debate but in doing so he violated basic rules of the road. I had to almost stop to allow him to pass in front of me as he would not give way. How can they expect people to operate a boat in a safe manner when they ignore basic rules?
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| Name: |
Pier Pressure
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 12:02:55 PM
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For some reason some people abuse positions of trust. I understand a little berating by those in authority, but only to the point of thats where it ends. If you are going to write me up, at least do it in a professional manner. The only ticket I have received on the water was for diving more than 50 feet from my dive flag (on my boat). I understand the ticketing process, and also understand that I was guilty. Thing was that the officer took twenty minutes questioning me about my training, scolding me, telling me how stupid I was, etc. Obviously he was upset, but at no time was I ever rude or anthing other than courteous to him. I have respect for law enforcement. Bot my father and step mother are retired officers.
The thing is, there are bad apples in every basket. In fact, maybe this guy was just having a bad day at home or something. Who am I to judge someone for having a bad day? Guess what, I was guilty as charged. I look at it as my additional contribution for the gas thats burned in the name of safety.
Put yourself in their shoes, they spend 8 hours a day in the sun, in an enclosed cabin with only a fan. They wear life jackets (most of them), and hot shirts. Unless they live on the water they have to commute. They have mountains of paperwork to do after their shift is done. Their work gets belittled on boards like this and most of their work is in vain. AND, their pay doesn't come close to most of those on this board.
So, even though I do not agree with them having attitude, or being rude, I cannot blame them for not feeling sorry for impeding our enjoyment for 5 minutes... By doing their job. I don't think anywhere it states that persons of authority are supposed to project a happy attitude...?
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| Name: |
DaBurglar
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 1:37:52 PM
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I had a new boat. 10 days old. I didnt want to put decals on because the boat looked so good. I called and they said the 11th day I had to add decals... I went on the lake and 15 minutes later was pulled over by MP. He him. So, instead he tickets me for no extinguisher (which was true) but, I have a service that I only pay $17 a month for and they handled it and the case was tossed out. It good insurance to have a lawfirm in your pocket for just $17 a month. Helped both my wife and I with speeding tickets also.. Get ya some...!!!
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| Name: |
Pier Pressure
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 1:41:17 PM
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More than likely the state knows when to take their losses. Is it worth them putting in thousands of dollars into a court case for a $130 fine?
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| Name: |
woofwoof
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 2:07:01 PM
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my plan exactly
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| Name: |
SBC Stingray
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 2:22:57 PM
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On what grounds?
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| Name: |
Pier Pressure
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 2:40:55 PM
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Innocent until proven guilty....
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 2:58:53 PM
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I bet that by the time court rolled around you had the fire extinguisher and that is why it was tossed. Just like not having a tag, busted light, etc. If at court time you can show that you have corrected whatever issue most judges toss the tickets. This holds true in 99% of 'traffic' cases with minor violations. I have also 'pled down' to less than 14mph over posted limit to avoid insurance wanting to call it reckless driving. I never needed a lawyer fro these simple matters.
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| Name: |
DaBurglar
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 4:11:39 PM
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I am not sure... Maybe my attorney bought a extinquisher. I never have to go since they go for me. Once in Alex City, Once in Camplhill, Once in Bullock County.
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| Name: |
Tallyman
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| Subject: |
I won in court
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Date:
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7/15/2008 4:22:47 PM
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The Marine Police should leave people alone who are minding their own business. The water is one place where law enforcement can stop you without probable cause, so they really need to exercise judgment. Just be glad the USCG isn't out there "helping" you.
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| Name: |
SBC Stingray
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| Subject: |
USCG
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Date:
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7/15/2008 4:42:06 PM
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That is the truth. You have not seen an inspection until the Coast Guard does it. Last time I took my boat offshore we were pulled over by a 120' Cutter that ran us down like we were standing still. My boat did 34 knots. Seven guys came to my boat in full tactical gear and proceeded to administer a 2.5 hour safety check. We drifted 8 miles during that time. Talk about a pain in the rear!!!
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
USCG
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Date:
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7/15/2008 5:19:55 PM
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I bet if that boat were taking on water you wouldn't complain when they showed up. Keep in mind what they have to be prepared to encounter each time they board a vessell.
Nothing but kudo's from me to the USCG and the WP!!
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| Name: |
Aardvark
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/15/2008 8:39:14 PM
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The heirs of Ned are obviously living up to their master's example.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
GUILTY Pay your Fine
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Date:
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7/16/2008 12:04:29 AM
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I served in the USCG many years ago and saved a number of lives and I have little sympathy for someone who breaks a boating safety regulation. If you stand up and the boat keeps running, the odds are that you do not have your kill switch attached. Attaching your kill switch to a life preserver on you seat is like connecting both ends of your seat beat behind you. You were not stopped cause you were a bunch of 20 year olds. Pay your fine and consider it a lesson learned.
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| Name: |
woofwoof
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| Subject: |
GUILTY Pay your Fine
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Date:
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7/16/2008 1:00:18 AM
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First of all I was unaware of the fact that a kill switch had to be attached in every boat. (Apparently only in those under 24 feet which seems a little counter intuitive given the fact that a larger boat would cause more damage if unmanned and under power.) I had only heard of this being mandatory for jet skis. In my fifteen plus years boating and fishing the lake I have never heard of anyone getting a ticket for this. I have been stopped several times for checks by both DNR and marine police and the only time the kill switch had been adressed was to check to see if it was present and functioning, not attached.
Secondly, I was in a pontoon going less than ten miles an hour. If somehow I fell over the three foot railing, I feel pretty confident I could have caught up to the boat. If not, I'm certain that one of the other nine people in the boat would have simply put it in nuetral and let me get in or just turned around to come get me. The situation was not one in which my standing to get sunscreen posed a real danger to anyone. The boat was going very slow and in reality standing gave me a view of the other boats in the area.
Lastly, I am not complaining that the marine police were enforcing safety regulations during a weekend when the lake is especially dangerous. I simply feel that my being stopped and ticketed was uncalled for in this case. If the officer felt that I was doing something dangerous, that should have been the first issue addressed when he pulled me over. However that was not the case. Rather than explaining the reason for the stop, I was immediately questioned about drinking and driving and underage drinking (neither of which were occurring on my boat). In my opinion the officer intended to give me a ticket for something. Like I said in my earlier post, they seemed genuinely disappointed that an unattached kill switch was the only violation they could find.
People wonder why there is a whole generation of kids with a distrust of law enforcement. This is a classic example. If it had been my parents and their friends I have little doubt that the situation would have been much different. The fact of the matter is that we were being responsible and using good judgement in designating a driver and making sure that we had what we thought were the proper safety features (life jackets, horn, extinguisher, throw cushions, and yes, a functioning kill switch). We were also courteous and respectful to the officers. My complaint is that our good judgment and courtesy were not reciprocated.
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| Name: |
UncleSam
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| Subject: |
GUILTY Pay your Fine
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Date:
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7/16/2008 2:05:59 AM
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>>>I was in a pontoon going less than ten miles an hour. If somehow I fell over the three foot railing, I feel pretty confident I could have caught up to the boat. <<<
You must be an incredible swimmer; why aren't you preparing for the Olympics?
>>>If not, I'm certain that one of the other nine people in the boat would have simply put it in nuetral and let me get in or just turned around to come get me.<<<
But would they have been able to put the boat in neutral before the still spinning prop mangled whatever part of your body that it hit? They would have had to act in a second or so, probably less. In which case they are even more impressive than you, and should also be preparing for the Olympics.
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| Name: |
CindyA
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/16/2008 6:58:17 AM
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I don't think anyone on this site is saying that the Marine Police should not enforce the law. What is being discussed is the MANNER in which some - not all - of the MP choose to enforce the laws.
we have only had one dealing with them and it was not pleasant. we had taken our new boat out (just had it 3 days - purchased it on Friday afternoon - this was Sunday) and they pulled us over.
they questioned why we did not have the registration number on it, we explained. When that was explained away - they went down their entire check list...
1. kill switch - yes attached around hubby's hand
2. life jackets - yes - had to show all of them
3. throw cushion - yes - showed them that
4. driver's license - yes - showed them that
5. bill of sale showing purchase date - yes - showed them that
not sure if we had to show them the fire extinquisher - but had that on board to show them. We were respectful of them, tried to make conversation but they would have none of it.
what got me was the attitude that they showed, they seemed extremely disappointed that they could not give us any type of ticket so they then began to make some snide comments about us and the boat. Granted we are slightly middle aged, but was not aware that age was a requirement for getting whatever type of boat we wanted to get.
we were simply out for an enjoyable ride on a beautiful weekend and because of someone's attitude it was almost ruined.
Again, I have no issues with them pulling us over - they had no way of knowing how long we had the boat. What I do have issue with is HOW the offficers chose to react and handle the situation.
no matter how many good ones there are, the two we dealt with are the lasting impression I have of the Marine Police - and it is not a positive one.
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| Name: |
RidgeRider
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| Subject: |
not true
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Date:
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7/16/2008 9:11:02 AM
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if you are truely innocent, there's a value to the public in fighting it.
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| Name: |
green,ed
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| Subject: |
not true
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Date:
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7/16/2008 9:31:23 AM
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He already admitted guilt.
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| Name: |
lakemartintime
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/16/2008 12:01:20 PM
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I have some problems with the way the marine police enforce some of the rules but also thank and respect them for the job they do!
One cool thing I saw......on the Sunday after the 4th we were anchored at the rock, swimming in the back of the slew, we saw a marine police checking boats. As they got closer to us we saw that they were only stopping at anchored boats that had young children on them. They were talking to the children, taking them aboard the patron boat and showing them around and when they went back to their boat they all had a new tee shirt complements of the marine police! That is the kind of public relations the marine police need...Good Job!
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| Name: |
SPEARFISHER
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| Subject: |
GUILTY Pay your Fine
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Date:
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7/16/2008 12:47:23 PM
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<<First of all I was unaware of the fact that a kill switch had to be attached in every boat. >>
I always thought that the first thing they tought you in law school was that ignorance of the law is not an excuse. How in the world did you ever get a boating liscense and not know that?? Sounds like to me you might need a refresher course.
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| Name: |
DaBurglar
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| Subject: |
Only idoits pay the fines!
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Date:
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7/16/2008 12:49:50 PM
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I cant beleive they pay fines. I have never had to. So stupid.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
GUILTY Pay your Fine
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Date:
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7/16/2008 1:19:55 PM
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Not only on boating regulations, but law also. How did this guy pass the LSAT? And if he passes the Bar Exam......... well that is just scary.
Question: What is the most expensive thing in the world?
Answer: A cheap attorney.
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| Name: |
old blue chair
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/16/2008 1:21:22 PM
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I may have missed the info., how long is your pontoon? 24' > kill switch is required - <24' kill switch must be attached when boat is under way - simple as on and off
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| Name: |
SPEARFISHER
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/16/2008 1:33:58 PM
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When the law was first passed it read that a boat had to have a kill switch if it were 24' or less. Then all of the members of the state legislature realized they had 24' pontoon boats so the law was ammended to read less than 24'.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
How To Fight it Woof Woof
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Date:
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7/16/2008 3:57:58 PM
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The law reads as follows:
Ignition Safety Switch
Alabama law requires that vessels that are less than 24 feet in length, have an open cockpit, and are powered by more than 50 horsepower, be equipped with an ignition safety switch. The lanyard of the switch must be attached to the person, clothing, or PFD of the operator.
We know your vessel is less than 24 feet. Is the motor MORE than 50 HP? I assume the answer is YES.
As you stated, " the lanyard of the switch was attached to the PFD of the operator that was on the seat ". I guess an aspiring attorney like you Woof Woof could argue, "Your honor, It does not state you have to be wearing the PFD".
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
NO HULL NUMBERS
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Date:
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7/16/2008 4:05:46 PM
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While the regulations may allow 72 hours to operate a new boat without numbers, it is an open invitation to the Marine Police to waste their time to stop and investigate. Once they stop you they are going to go through their check list. It is stressful to be stopped at anytime, but especially so on your maiden voyage. Don't give them such an obvious reason to stop you. Enjoy you new boat.
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| Name: |
CindyA
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| Subject: |
NO HULL NUMBERS
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Date:
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7/16/2008 6:06:44 PM
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I know, so I guess according to you we should not have used the boat until we could get it registered...what a great idea...
Bought and picked it up after 5 on Friday afternoon and the county office is closed on Saturday and Sunday.
Again, I have no problem with them stopping us for not having the registration numbers on the boat - my problem was with their ATTITUDE.
Here is how I thought it should go...
MP - there are no hull numbers on your boat..
US - yes sir, we just purchased it Friday and plan on getting it registered and the numbers on it Monday, here is a copy of of the bill of sale.
MP - okay, you have 72 hours (or whatever) to get that done - see you around - nice boat.
US - thanks and we certainly will get this taken care of sir.
Now then, what is so darn difficult with that?????
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| Name: |
JIM
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| Subject: |
NO HULL NUMBERS
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Date:
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7/16/2008 6:58:56 PM
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CindyA, What it amounts to, these water Cowboys are taking advantage of their position.
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| Name: |
autiger
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/16/2008 9:49:24 PM
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I wish people would post the names of the rude water patrol officers they encounter.If you get their name out there or report them to their supervisors, then maybe some of this harassment will stop.
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This is exactly the behavior I witnessed and I believe it is wrong for an officer of the law to behave this way. In the case I witnessed no citations were issued, but I have zero respect for the officer who was beyond rude and has no place in public service.
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| Name: |
Tallyman
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/17/2008 1:45:32 PM
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Some of these MP were overbearing hall monitors in junior high. Abuse of authority is a trait that is hard to quash.
For you kill switch lovers, you should know that neither the states of Georgia or Florida require them for anything other than PWCs. I guess our legislature thinks us Alabamians are too stupid to stay on board our boats.
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| Name: |
8hcap
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/17/2008 2:44:03 PM
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even in Alabama we have a nanny state problem. Seatbelts, motorcycle helmuts and kill switches all fill the bill but it really boils down to legislating personal responsibility out of existence. After all, we have to have someone to sue when we do really stupid stuff and hurt ourselves.
8
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| Name: |
Pier Pressure
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/17/2008 2:53:55 PM
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A fisherman lost his life on the Alabama river when his high speed bass boat hit a floating tree. It threw him out of the boat. Don't think he was wearing his life jacket, but it was reported that his boat was found circling without him and his body was found two or three days later...
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| Name: |
Tallyman
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/17/2008 4:05:17 PM
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Most boating deaths occur when fishermen fall out of boats that have no motors, into farm ponds, and drown. Check the stats.
I am still waiting to hear of one life saved by a kill switch or even one lost because a person wasn't using one. Can anyone document a runaway boat causing an accident to property?
We should have the freedom to choose. I think I know more about what it takes to keep me and my family safe than some moron legislators.
This is what the USCG stats boil down to for 2006:
"Many boating accidents were the result of alcohol use, and most of all boating fatalities could have been prevented by wearing personal flotation devices."
The USCG report says nada with regard to persons killed or injured as the result of failing to use a kill switch.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/17/2008 5:37:32 PM
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"I am still waiting to hear of one life saved by a kill switch or even one lost because a person wasn't using one. Can anyone document a runaway boat causing an accident to property?"
You were given one example the first time you asked. There aren't many "runaway boats" because folks wear kill switches.
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| Name: |
Tallyman
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/17/2008 10:23:44 PM
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Provide me please with one real life example, if you can. I can be convinced by facts.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/18/2008 9:20:14 AM
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Search for the first time you asked that question and read L.T.L.'s response.
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| Name: |
Tallyman
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/18/2008 2:02:19 PM
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I don't recall ever getting a documented response. Check the USCG boating statistics. They are available on the web. There's not a word about deaths or injuries due to the lack of a kill switch on a boat. Of course, the USCG could care less if you have one. They don't require them.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/18/2008 4:14:44 PM
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"I don't recall ever getting a documented response."
What you got was 'direct testimony' which is a pretty high standard in your world (law). But you are right, I don't think he offered any 'documents'. <sarcasm OFF>
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| Name: |
SBC Stingray
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| Subject: |
USCG
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Date:
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7/21/2008 11:57:32 AM
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You are right. Of course, the guy that owns the boat now would not mind it going to the bottom with the way gas prices are at the gulf now! :-) But I have nothing but respcet for thsoe guys and girls. We cooperated with every request. They have nothing but my highest respect as do all military and law enforcement. They do a dangerous job and don't get paid what i think they should!
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| Name: |
Tixman
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| Subject: |
marine police
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Date:
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7/22/2008 10:29:37 AM
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We were at the Rock (7/18) and tied up to watch the jumpers. Marine Police was cruising around and started handing out T-Shirts to all the boaters. Nice gesture. Did not see any tickets, but did see a couple of inspections.
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