Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Trump's best order
Date:	5/26/2018 10:10:09 AM

Trump just made a major, great move to Drain Tha Swamp.  See article from communist rag "Politico" at link.  Love to hear the illegal loving, do nothin' gubment "employee", worthless dimokraps whine.....

Link:  https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/25/trump-federal-employees-unions-civil-servants-609167

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Trump's best order
Date:	5/26/2018 10:41:52 AM (updated 5/26/2018 10:42:32 AM)

I applaud Trump for this move. Long overdue. 

Interesting that you get your news from the Communist rag Politico rather than the Nazi station FOX.  Always thought you were a really a closet Liberal. You finally confirmed it……Looks like we have more in common than the Forum reveals.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Trump's best order
Date:	5/26/2018 11:54:50 AM

GOOF, I learned long ago that one must know their enemies as well as they know their friends.  The more you understand your enemy, the easier it is to defeat them......

Name:	Moldyoldy -	Reply
Subject:	Trump's best order
Date:	5/26/2018 12:30:25 PM

I find it amusing how so many libs like gone fishing insult conservatives by calling them nazis. Conservatives are not nazis. Nazis are just another form of socialist government, like people who call themselves communists or socialists. Why do liberals not use a term that describes conservatives when they insult them, like "you dirty, small government, liberty loving scumbag"? 

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Yeah, their latest....
Date:	5/26/2018 1:33:36 PM

is to call all conservatives “racist”.  It's the liberal users of these people who are the real racists.....   If tha goof types only knew....

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Trump's best order
Date:	5/26/2018 4:02:32 PM (updated 5/26/2018 4:28:55 PM)

As a former Fed manager, this is a double edged sword.  First of all, the union is not as powerful as you all seem to believe, at least as it pertains to white collar jobs.   I don't see them as a very effective means of protecting employee rights.  They are more effective in the blue collar jobs and low level employees, rather than the professional white collar jobs.  It is also more powerful in the "excepted service", i.e., intelligence and law enforcement services.  

Now, most federal managers will be glad for the ability to make it easier to remove poor performing employees.  But I doubt they will have the right to just fire them.  As it has been, it is a long process of documenting poor performance, then establishing a rating of poor performance and then developing seemingly endless plans to bfing the employee up to satisfactory performance - it is time consuming and that is why most managers don't even try to do it.  Additonally, it's like 80% of fired employees are reinstated on appeal.  And the manager is also liable to civil suite, which can drag on.  The government provides a lawyer for managers who have done everything in accordance with the regulations, but in the meantime, the employee can tie up your personal possessions for years, until the civil case is decided.  That's why most managers carry liability insurace.  Additionally, performance goals against which employees are rated, will have to be quantified and much more specific than in the past.  Since they are not making widgets, it can be very, very difficult to quantify and get specific about duties of white collar, policy developers.  Rumsfeld tried this in Defense, spent a great deal of money developing and getting it into place, only to have it fail miserably and be abandoned once he left.  

 Managers will applaud the shortened duration time for performance improvement, and I think it is a positive thing  to get the Personnel office involved quickly and put on official notice.  But with the devil in the details, it will be critical to the create the standards to which against which white collar employees are held. And as the article points out, it may result in fewer whistle blowers and sources to Congress.  I wonder what time period Trump is giving agencies to develop the new standards? The article doesn't say.  

But this is where I see a double edged sword.  If you are doing a good job, but the boss doesn't like you, you can be fired.  If you refuse to tow the party line, you can be fired, although one reason for civilians is to provide consistency and objective assessment on a proposed action.  Believe me, you do not want a work force of "yes" people, given the ideas of some political appointees.  

It may increase the personal libabiliy of managers and you'll see more civil suits.  

I'm not sure I understand the "preference to which long tenured employees are given".  I'm not aware of that at all.  If an employee is a poor performer, I am not aware of anything in current civil service laws that prevent them from being rated against their standards and found wanting.  You know, sometimes the biggest barrier against getting people fired has to do with the most senior managers  - agency directors and such.  They tend to not want to take the final step and start caving.  I don't see anything in the EO that will prevent that.  Human nature being what it is.  

Keep in mind that those in the Senior Executive Service and political appointees can already be fired with no appeal.  And it doesn't have to be for poor performance.  It can be for judgement errors and failure to support the Admnistrantions goals.  So they have already had the power to "drain the swamp" from that persepctive without this EO.  

Now as far as the time and money spent by union officials on union duties being capped - I'm all for that.  And they should extend it to EEO officers as well.  These are elected positions outside of their normally duties, and I have seen it abused.  In fact, in my experence, most of the people drawn to these positions are not people that you would want representing you in an action.  At least, I wouldn't.  

So while you are crying Yipee and think this is the solution to draining the swamp, it may also be a double edged sword that gets rid of good people too.  Nothing is all good or all bad.  

And keep in mind, that the EOs are only good for the term of underwhich they are issued.  It's not permanent. 

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 6:15:27 PM

I knew you would chime in, and your response, while is accurate, is exactly the problem with the gubment.  Who the H—— gives the worthless gubment employee the rrrrrriiiiiggggghhhhhttttt to expect an 80% chance to keep his job on appeal.  Who is guaranteed a job till retirement?  Why are white collar (managers) protected?  Hound you should have worked in the real world for awhile and you would appreciate where we're coming from.  Do the job or you're gone.....that's the real world.  Let's just hope Trump can win this one over the dimokraps.  Fed so called “employees” is the dimokrap's greatest hope, and the worst problem in the US.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	WHOA MOLDYOLDY
Date:	5/26/2018 6:28:13 PM

You are acting like a typical right winger. I can insult you but you can't insult me. You have an issue with Nazi FOX but accept  WIX's reference to a Leftist publication Politico as Communist or reference on the Forum to  Liberals as communists or socialists. 

Dude, what am I missing???????

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 6:35:39 PM

"Do the job or you're gone.....that's the real world." This may be true for a small operation. Large companies have policies that include a process of improvement before an employee is fired for bad performance. It is a process that can drag out before a firing. Unlike the government there is no appeal unless the employee hires an attorney and sues.

The recent S. Court ruling eliminates class action suits on behalf of employees.

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	Trump's best order
Date:	5/26/2018 7:18:43 PM

Wix--my best friend is my enemies enemy

Name:	au67 -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 7:47:48 PM

This is why I'm so opposed to the "moderate" approach to addressing a problem.  We can look at the problem from this side, but let's also look at the other side.  Let's compromise and meet in the middle and do nothing.  Dammit, take a stand or sit down!

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 9:11:23 PM

Reminds me of Wallace  June 1963 at the U of A. He probably said to himself...dammit I'm taking a stand. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 9:19:07 PM

Wix, you can believe anything you wish, but I spent 32 years in the system and I think I have a pretty good handle on what works and what doesn't work about it.   I've lived with it as an employee, a middle manager and a senior manager.  

I have seen various ways over the years that people try to reform civil service and get rid of the "dead wood" that people on the outside seem to think fill the roles.  I can tell you this - you don't get good performance out of people by threats.  You get good performance out of people who feel good about their work and their contributions.  We'll see at the end of a year how many people get fired.  

The govenrment is not industry, and the people that think it can be run like one are always frutstrated when their efforts are not successful.  Ask Don Rumsfeld.  Ask Al Gore among others.  

Trump seems to believe that employment is like his show The Apprentice" where he could say "you're fired" and the only opinion that matters is his.  I sincerely doubt he runs his businesses this way.  it doesn't work in the real world.  

I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea to make the firing system more managable, because it has been unmanagble for years.  While you are making fun of my saying that 80% of people that are fired are reinstated on appeal, it's true, and do you think about how much it costs the taxpayer to have people reinstated?  Back pay, leave and sick leave reinstated, lawyers, civilians to process the case and hearings.  I didn't see anything mentioned about doing away with the Appeals process.  

So you do your little happy dance and you mock what I have to say.  We'll see how this plays out.  Trump can't seem to manage the WH staff, so I don't know how he thinks he can manage the whole government.  It's much easier to fly at 30,000 feet than to fly at the tree tops.  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 9:45:14 PM

Sad fact.  South Carolina is a "right to work state".  We hired a woman for a job she claimed she was qualified to perform.  Nothing could have been farther from the truth.  After she came to work she claimed she could not do the job she was hired for, but was a lower level "minion".  I worked for a very large company at the time, and because she was Filipino, and thus a minority, she held the possibility of a lawsuit claiming discrimination over the company....all the while doing NO productive work.  They reassigned her to another department, where she stayed, doing nothing, until her supervisor came in one morning to find her laptop on his desk with a note she resigned.  Of course her laptop was "slicked" to ensure nobody could prove she was doing absolutely no productive work. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 9:54:59 PM

I hear you, but under the present system there was an employee of a Navy unit in Charleston who was assigned to a job but given no tasks so he could wait out his time to retire.  I swear the guy's primary job was placing sticky notes around his cube reflecting innocuous upcoming events...and he did NOTHING for at least six months, maybe a year.

Hound, you know I appreciate the hard work of the dedicated civil servants I have been privileged to work with.  At the same time there are dolts that need to be shed, and hopefully Trump's initiative will ease their departure from the federal "work force".

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's best offer
Date:	5/26/2018 10:01:37 PM

The way it is does not have to be the way it continues, even for the massive federal government.  Change will come slow, as we have seen with ANYTHING that Trump has tried to implement.  For sure, beauracracy is a mountain to move!  I don't doubt that Hound has described the current situation perfectly.  That is the problem!

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's confirmation
Date:	5/26/2018 11:27:41 PM

So Hound, you are confirming that the Fed bureaucracy is bigger and more powerful than anyone or anything.....that it is indeed THE SWAMP......omnipotent....all powerful.....invincible....

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	5/27/2018 9:09:29 AM

I hear you.  I had a 70 year old engineer who happened to be Indian.  He was in very ill health, used all of his sick leave and annual leave, and then asked for donations.  We were moving refusing his request for leave wihout pay (which would have forced him into retirement), and then he popped back in.  He could barely walk, his "technology" was trucks, which don't have many, if any, export issues.  My deputy used to talk with him daily, pointing out all the advantages of retirement, including the fact that he was basically working for nothing, but he wouldn't give and there was nothing we could do about it.  Now that is a case where having the hammar to be able to fire him or him retire would have been a great thing.  He was just taking up time and space.  

You know, when employees are hired, they are on a 3 year probation period, meaning that they can be let go, without  appeals "with cause".  That fact is not utilized nearly enough.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hound's confirmation
Date:	5/27/2018 9:23:35 AM

No, I'm not saying that.  What I am saying is that you don't turn an aircraft carrier quickly.  It may surprise you to learn that they are no longer trying to recruit the 30 year employee.  One the big reasons they changed the retirement system in the late 80s was to make it more portable, so people coud move in and out of government as their career progressed.  

What I would like to see is a bipartisan effort in Congress to make changes that make sense and coud be implemented without great cost to the taxpayer.  

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Defense contractors....
Date:	5/27/2018 7:24:24 PM

Also, about thirty years ago the gubment started farming out a whole lot of their work that had been done in house by gubment employees.  I'll not talking about building ships and airplanes, I’m talking about recruiting, security processing, paperwork normally done in house.  How many ex-gubment, military employees have become filthy rich by getting those contracts as a setup on the way out the gubment door.  Total waste of our money.  I know I’m stepping on toes here, but TS.  Facts are facts.  Not only are gubment employees ineffectual, lazy, and wasteful; sometimes they may be crooked....

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Defense contractors....
Date:	5/27/2018 10:46:10 PM

You know not what you speak.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Defense contractors....
Date:	5/27/2018 11:02:27 PM

You are going way off the deep end.  Yes, a lot of "engineering" and support services have been contracted out.  Our government no longer designs and engineers it's defense equipment.  While I am aware that the government has consolidated personnel, financial operations, and computer support, I am unaware that they have contracted out these services.  There are things that cannot be contracted out becasue they are inherently government functions.  

As far as people setting themselve up with contracts before they go out the door - you do realize that is illegal??  People go to jail for those things.  I am aware that some people go to work for contractors once they leave miltiary or government employment, but there are restrictions on their ability to work directly with the govenrment for a period of years.  

Your total Lack of understanding of things that you seem to think you are an expert on, is putting you in the same category with those you dispage reguarly in this forum.  You are entitled to your opinions, but don't mistake them for facts.  

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Gubment contractors....
Date:	5/28/2018 3:04:02 PM

I made one correction above.  The problem is gubment wide.  As to contractors waiting...yes there is a waiting period, but all you have to do is operate your contractor business at arms length for awhile.  No, I don't think you have seen me claim to be an authority on gubment, but I'm not an ignorant “idiot” either.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Gubment contractors....
Date:	5/28/2018 6:05:35 PM

If they do, they are taking a big risk.  The waiting period is 5 years - do you think anyone hires someone with that kind of restriction?  They can't use their influence for access - so what would be the point?  Now they can work on other governmental programs, but not the ones they did in the government.  Some are hired in advisory roles for their overall expertise in governmental relations or as a subject matter expert (like IT or Engineering, etc).  

I find it very intersesting that you are so sure that all government employees are so awful and constantly doing things that are unethical, or illegal.  Just becasue of Lois Learned - and reallly what she did was totally legal, but perhaps not ethical.  i guess she didn't want to go to jail.  The govenment workforce is a microcasm of the population at large - for better or worse.  

I'm not sure what kind of career you had, but I'll bet whatever it was, for better or worse, it was much like the government.  Yes, the personnel system has it flaws and you won't meet many people who work for the government that wouldn't like to see it changed and brought up to date with current personnel practices.  The worst thing about working for our government is that everyone outside goes on what they've "heard" or had some minor negative exeperice with, they are convinced that govenrment people are geting away with something, and are paid way too much money (although most surverys show that they are on par or a bit behind industry for the same responsibiliites).  Just keep in mind that for every story you hear about how bad it is, you aren't hearing about the successes, the dedication, the commitment that most government employees represent.  Not all the policies and rules put out there are not the idea of the career workforce - lots come from their political appointee bosses or represent the policies of the current administratin - whatever administration.  

Now I can't say if you are an idiot or not, but since you don't think you are, then we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Hound...
Date:	5/28/2018 7:24:53 PM

Your statement that Lois Lerner did nothing illegal justifies everything I have said about gubment employees.  Deep State lives...

Name:	Moldyoldy -	Reply
Subject:	WHOA MOLDYOLDY
Date:	5/29/2018 10:01:28 AM

No, gone. I am saying that a liberal calling a conservative a nazi is like a donkey calling a horse a jackass.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Wix
Date:	5/29/2018 12:17:36 PM

I was referring to her taking the 5th before Congress. And then being allowed to retire.  

Regarding her actions while in the job, yes, apparently she did some pretty unethical things.  But, while I don't condone her actions, she is not the first in a political job, to use the power of her position to use it against the opposition to the Administration.  Hers came to light, but I wonder how many others are doing the same thing, but it just hasn't been exposed yet?  I am not excusing her in the least, but I don't think the one person is a representative of everyong that works for the govenrment.  Washington is a pretty cut throat place.  People do stupid things to get a leg up.  I don't know her - I don't know if she was directed to do that, if it was her own idea to move up in power.  For whatever reason, she wasn't proscuted and she got away with it.  Time to let it go.  

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Wix
Date:	5/29/2018 8:41:12 PM

I rest my case.  Further justification for my problems with the Deep State.....do you think Trump is referring to elected politicians when he says DEEP STATE?  No, it includes the gubment employees, and they are the most detrimental to the country.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Wix
Date:	5/29/2018 10:07:22 PM

I have no idea what Trump means when he says "Deep State".  I assume this is one of his made up phrases that people latch onto like it really means something.  

Clearly, I won't change your mind, you will not change my mind, so there really isn't anything more to debate.  Government employees are apparently the root of all evil - so when you fire them all, don't be surprised when there isn't anyone to answer your calls to Social Security, the IRS, the VA, or wherever else you need answers or help from.  Have it your way.