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Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Hang onto your 201k....er 401k's
Date:	8/12/2010 10:07:50 AM

The bad news is about to roll big time so expect another bog drop in what is left of your 401k. To whit:

1. Near record 93,000 home foreclosures
2. Jobless claims up to 484,000 last week
3. GDP revised downward by over 1% from Q1
4. Home prices are dropping despite near record low interest rates
5. Chinese industrial output falling indicating world wide recession may be starting
6. Trade deficit increasing which will crush growth
7. Deficit increased by $165,000,000,000 in ONE MONTH..that's $165 billion which was the average ANNUAL deficit under Bush
8. Poll after poll showing consumer sentiment is wildly negative

I am more convinced than ever that we are headed toward a double-dip recession because of the feckless OCarter administration's policies along with the fiscal insanity of the leadership in the House and Senate. And all this before the largest increase in federal taxes in 2011 for every single American that pays taxes. Every single rate goes up and in fact the lower rates go up significantly more than the higher rates on a percentage basis.

It is no surprise that OCarter's PAI is at -22. He is simply not up to the job and must be replaced in order for this country to survive. First step in November is to send Reid/Pelosi to the ash heap of history along with communism. Then we have to defeat Obama. It is the only way the Republic will survive.

Name:	MAJ USA RET -	Reply
Subject:	Who is spending
Date:	8/12/2010 10:40:54 AM

People who have money are now hoarding and saving. Personal and family discretionary spending is curtailed. In other words, consumer confidence is down, spending is down, and employment is down. Small businesses are not (can’t) take on anymore debt. The looming tax burden is indiscernible.

Meanwhile, government spends like a drunken sailor. Discretionary spending is out of control. In other words, misplaced government arrogance is up despite the fact that employment is down and the vast majority of citizens are angry. The government accumulates debt. The looming tax burden is certain, palpable, and painful.

By the way, note that Spain is about to go the way of Greece.

Our first US state to topple will be Illinois. Much the same way as the EU was obligated to bail out Greece, the Federal government will be forced to bail our Illinois with funds collected from taxpayers in responsible states. Will the EU bail out Spain? Will the US bail out California? Dominos.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	You should be ashamed!
Date:	8/12/2010 10:48:23 AM

Drunken sailors everywhere are offended at your analogizing them with Congress. Shame on you Maj! Your apology should be forthcoming. :-)

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Be Proactive
Date:	8/12/2010 1:24:38 PM

Don't just talk about the potential loss of principal in your 401k, rather, be proactive and move if to the money market option until after the election.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Martini, are you sure?????
Date:	8/12/2010 1:40:15 PM

I have to agree the economic news is not encouraging. However, I do question your statement that taxes will be going up for eveyone. Can you show the evidence to back up your statement " And all this before the largest increase in federal taxes in 2011 for every single American that pays taxes. Every single rate goes up and in fact the lower rates go up significantly more than the higher rates on a percentage basis". Here is an article that shows evidence of a tax reduction which I find quite interesting. (I do realize that, unlike most, you are considered to be part of the Super Rich subset.) Cheers. Almost rich? You could pay less tax next year cnnmoney Blake Ellis, staff reporter, On Thursday August 12, 2010, 10:03 am EDT Worried about your taxes going up next year? They might for some high earners. But some not-quite-rich taxpayers could end up with a surprise tax cut. If the Bush tax cuts expire for the nation's top earners, people making a pinch less than the wealthiest Americans, who don't quite qualify for the new top two tax brackets, could find themselves in an even lower bracket next year. "We should end up with a sweet spot in the middle of the higher income brackets," said Robert Kerr, senior director of government relations at the National Association of Enrolled Agents. "This is an unintended benefit of the new plan that many people don't realize." The government is defining the wealthiest Americans as individuals with taxable income of more than $195,550, ($200,000 in adjusted gross income) and joint filers with taxable income over $237,300, ($250,000 in adjusted gross income). These taxpayers could be hit with higher tax bills next year as the tax rates for the top two brackets return to pre-Bush administration levels of 36% from 33%, and 39.6% from 35%. But under Obama's tax plan, the 28% income tax bracket would be widened. According to estimates from Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation, if your taxable income is between $171,850 and $195,550, you would fall into this "sweet spot" and be moved from the 33% tax bracket to the 28% bracket and could end up saving more than $1,000 a year. Say you're a single filer with a taxable income of $195,550, taking one personal exemption and a basic standard deduction. In 2010 you fell into the 33% tax bracket and paid $49,648 in income taxes. But if Obama's tax plan is passed, you will drop down to the 28% tax bracket and will owe $48,310, resulting in a $1,338 tax savings. That goes for joint filers too. Those with income between $209,250 and $237,300 will also move into the 28% bracket. So joint filers making $237,300 will owe $54,399 under Obama's plan, $1,691 less than the $56,090 they owed this year. Even if you are a high earner and get pushed into the new 36% bracket, you could still end up with a tax savings. That's because under the tax system, not all income gets taxed at the same rate. So in the case of those at the low end of the 36% bracket, only the highest layer of income would be taxed at the 36% rate, while a larger portion will be taxed at the reduced 28% rate. Net result: a lower tax bill. This holds true until your taxable income exceeds about $240,000 -- a breakeven level at which point you would pay roughly the same in taxes in 2011 as you did in 2010, said Robert Willens, a professor of taxation at Columbia Business School and president of a tax consulting firm. But it's a different story for the super rich. The expiration of the Bush tax cuts could cost the wealthiest Americans anywhere from an additional few hundred dollars a year for those people in the lower end of the bracket, to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for multi-millionaires. "Ultimately, the inadvertent tax break would only be noticeable to a very small subset of people, since no more than 5% of people have income at or above the [current] 28% bracket," said Kerr.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Martini, are you sure?????
Date:	8/12/2010 2:00:51 PM

The Bush tax cuts included a rate cut for every single bracket. The lowest bracket went from 15% to 10%. In 2011 the lowest bracket will go from 10% to 15% or a 50% increase. The upper bracket goes from 35% to ~40% or a 14% increase. GF, the key to what I said is every single American that pays Federal taxes. Obviously if you pay no Federal taxes rates don't matter.

Name:	MAJ USA RET -	Reply
Subject:	GF et al
Date:	8/12/2010 2:18:04 PM

FIRST: How remiss of me! I am the son-of-a-son-of-a-sailor... I should know better. I offer my humble apology to the squids out there in forum land.

TOPIC AT HAND:

If the higher payers shell out more, will they invest more or less in the US?

If Industry (including small businesses) pays more in taxes, will you pay more or less for goods and services?

If entitlements go up, will your share of state and federal taxes go up or down?

Will you be paying more co-pay for less medical care? Do you consider federally driven co-pay increases as a tax?

Will escalation of government regulations cause an increase in the cost of goods and services, especially energy? Do you consider government regulation as taxation?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	GF et al
Date:	8/12/2010 3:04:30 PM

On behalf of drunken sailors (my brother is retired USN) I humbly accept your apology. My answers to your questions below. I could elaborate why if necessary:

If the higher payers shell out more, will they invest more or less in the US? LESS

If Industry (including small businesses) pays more in taxes, will you pay more or less for goods and services? MORE

If entitlements go up, will your share of state and federal taxes go up or down? UP

Will you be paying more co-pay for less medical care? MORE

Do you consider federally driven co-pay increases as a tax? YES

Will escalation of government regulations cause an increase in the cost of goods and services, especially energy? YES

Do you consider government regulation as taxation? YES

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Be Proactive
Date:	8/12/2010 3:18:14 PM

Lets see what would happen if we all took that advice. There is a total of $2.5 trillion in assets in 401k's. Remove all that from the market and the represents about 10% of the total U.S. stock market. Add to that the $4.2 trillion in IRA accounts and now we are talking removing 25% from the stock market (yes I know not all those are in equities). That might not be a good thing for any of us which is one reason I have been willing to ride the ups and downs. I am also 15-20 years from retirement so I can afford to absorb some paper losses right now.

So for many Americans with 401k's (those not close to or already retired) by far the biggest impact of the drop in 401k value is psychological. People have seen equity in their homes decline and the value of the their 401k decline and they begin to save more rather than spend. That drives down the economy.

Name:	water_watcher -	Reply
Subject:	GF et al
Date:	8/12/2010 5:42:10 PM

I know we have all talked about if the country could be split and all those that favor bigger government, higher taxes, more entitlement and more socialist government run programs that take from one to give to others .... to move to the left side of the country ... and those that want less government and believe in a strong capitalist society that made us gret ... get on the right side. Now if that could happen .... how long before those on the left would be crossing borders looking for jobs (gee like Mexico) and complaining that those rich SOB's should pay more to give them what they can not get on the left. Why is this so difficult to understand. Big government and more entitlements do not grow an economy or create jobs. Right now, China is the most capitalist nation on earth and they are trying to control their growth.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Hold It Martini
Date:	8/12/2010 8:55:45 PM

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Hold It Martini
Date:	8/12/2010 8:58:48 PM

I screwed that up. But, now that I have your attention, you seem to be making a BIG assumption that Obama wants the Bush tax cut to expire. I can't see a Dem congress trying to push that through.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Hold It Martini
Date:	8/13/2010 4:36:14 PM

I'm not sure I get your point. OCarter made a big deal about the Bush tax cuts benefiting the wealthy on numerous occasions and Geithner and others from his administration have been out defending letting them expire. As for the Dem-led Congress I would agree there is little chance of them extending those cuts because this is a big issue for their base although there have been some Dems calling for them to be extended.

Name:	water_watcher -	Reply
Subject:	Hold It Martini
Date:	8/13/2010 9:37:48 PM

the dems do not want to admit that tax cuts actually do stimulate the economy and create job rather than wasteful spending that takes way too much time to have a multiplier effect and create jobs ... especialliy when so much goes to funding existing jobs ... that only maintains staus quo and does not have a growth effect on the economy ... that has been the problem and why we are slipping and the small growth we were seeing, slowing again.

Fish ... what do you thing is working well that Obama and the dem congress is doing? I had this discussion with someone over dinner tonight and we said lets think and be totally honest ... all we came up with (we would not agree) is healthcare ... we do not agree because it is bad for the economy, especially right now AND the american people did not want it and some of the issue could have been addressed without a mass overhaul and the government involvement at a much lower cost.

Obama nd the dems continue to demonstrate that they think they know more and force their agenga vs what the american people want. i gues they forget ... a government of the people and for the people .... not what they think is best reguardless what the american people want.

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