Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Are you guys proud
Date:	3/2/2016 9:53:51 PM (updated 3/2/2016 9:57:26 PM)

Have you seen the video?  Today at a Trump rally in Louisville a black woman protestor was shoved and hit and physically forced from the rally while the crowd shouted racial slurs at her and Trump screamed "get out. get her out of here" from the podium.  Today one of the pushers in the crowd clearly shown on camera gave interviews explaining he was a white nationalist and proud of what he had done.  Was the woman foolish and a trouble maker who should have had more sense?  Of course she was stupid, especially considering the kinds of people who are attending this nuts rallies lately.  No, the Klan does not make the headlines today but the people who would be KKK if it were still cool are still out there by the thousands and Trump is making a conscious stealth appeal to them.  Yeah, Trump is bringing lots of new folks into the GOP.  Are you guys proud?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Are you guys proud
Date:	3/2/2016 10:46:50 PM

My first question when I saw the video was "what is she doing there?"  She didn't look like she was afraid, which led me to think that sge might have been a plant to get that on video.  It's unlikely she is a Trump fan, so what was she doing at his rally?   Things are tense enough without these sort of shananigans. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Are you guys proud
Date:	3/2/2016 10:56:51 PM

I agree, she should not have been there and must be a masochist for showing up.  That is not the point.  Regardless of the reason she was there is not the question.  The Trump supporters actions is the question.  The only thing more disgusting than the crowd reaction was Trump's reaction.  If she was a plant to make Trump and his crowd look bad, she was a roaring success!!  It might be instructive to compare the reaction of the crowd and candidate to this event to the reaction of Bill Clinton and the crowd when a couple of folks started making accusations againt Hillary at a rally in FL (I think) a few days ago.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Are you guys proud
Date:	3/2/2016 11:07:23 PM

But don't you see that she was merely race baiting?  Why should it get any serious consideration.  At this point, everyone is merely playing the role that they are expected to play.  Yes, it has been proven that some of Trump's supporters are  racist.  These people have been out there and are the ones who pretend to hate Obama for his policies, but they really can't stand the thought of a black man in the WH.  Just like they are saying that Clinton has a huge black following.  Well, why wouldn't she?  She's shamelessly courting the black vote by parading the mothers of the thugs that were killed by police. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Are you guys proud
Date:	3/3/2016 6:51:16 AM

You are correct, she was likely a plant and certainly an unwise inetrloper who should not have been there and that is disturbing.  The action of the crowd is even more disturbing.  Most disturbing is Trump urging the mob on by literally shouting from the podium microphone.  What in he!! are we thinking?  Are we willing to bet the nation that this man is not actually as irrational and irresponsible as he seems.  Maybe his antics and words are an act trying to telrgraph to the mob that he is one of them...but maybe its not.

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	Are you socialists proud
Date:	3/3/2016 8:20:38 AM (updated 3/3/2016 8:21:41 AM)

The left is simply trying to hang the racist tag on Trump.

Why ask someone 14 times if they disavow the KKK?

Why inject a militant black woman into a Trumpathon?

Disavowal - another tired strategy.

@ Archy- do you still beat your wife?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2016/03/02/ann-coulter-trump-wins-disavowal-game-then-super-tuesday/

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	More to come
Date:	3/3/2016 10:26:07 AM

Unfortunately because of Trump's play for white racist voters, his rallies are now sure to attract protesters in coming months.  We'll be lucky if someone isn't killed as his supporters rage against black & minority activists.   It's what happens when you gin up hatred & fear in American politics,  not unlike when conservatives (and klansmen) show up to do their own protests.

My guess is that groups like Black Lives Matter and MoveOn will bring scores of young people to Trump rallies, and hopefully everyone will remain peaceful.   But the shoving, cursing and aggression shown by Trump supporters is newsworthy and deserves to be televised.   People practicing civil disobedience protest strategies have been roughed up thousands of times since the Civil Rights Movement, and Trump may well reinvigorate them to put themselves on the line again.

Sadly, not everyone will be willing to be punched & cursed while turning the other cheek.  That will not be a plus for our side at all, but it will serve to put Trump's people on display.

I have been reading that Trump's nomination will recreate the Goldwater debacle for the GOP, and that may be true.  More scary to me, and I think really possible, is that the GOP convention ends up looking like the Chicago Democratic Convention in 1968.   At the time, the radicals of the Democratic party ran us off the rails and alienated the electorate for years afterward.  All that needs to happen is for Trump's hate-based campaign to trigger massive protester turn-out & street conflicts with his minions could easily erupt.   

Nonetheless, I'd remind everyone that peaceful protesting is legal, even if it occurs in the middle of a political rally.  Heck, that's where they do the most good.   As a Democrat, I won't regret the diminished influence of the GOP but I really don't want to see the US political process become more embittered & destructive than it already has become.

The take away:   Hate speech breeds anger.   Anger leads to violence.   When you preach intolerance, you shouldn't be surprised when it brings bad Karma.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Are you guys proud
Date:	3/3/2016 11:30:07 AM

I think there are a lot of angry white people out there.  I'm not saying they are right, what I am saying is that they exist.  Personally, I think Trump has gone over the top in encouraging this behavior, but he is obviously playing to the crowd.  I personally would like him to stop these antics and get serious and talk about the issues.  But I don't endorse race baiting for publicity either. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 11:39:02 AM

I think there is a lot of hate out there on both sides.  I'm afraid you are right that all of this will beget violence.  I agree that Trump has gone over the top in encouraging people to express their anger - but I also think that groups like Black Lives Matter are encouraging race baiting and doing as much to fuel the anger on both sides.  I'm afraid the days of peaceful protest that you and I remember are over.  Peace was at the heart of those protests, but anger is at the heart of these protests. 

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 12:18:46 PM

Martin Luther King wisely led the Civil Rights Movement in the direction of peaceful civil disobedience, but there was plenty of anger underneath that he could have easily ginned up.  Afterall, these people had several decades of lynchings, shootings, inability to vote or eat where they wanted, segregated to 2nd rate schools.   All of that justified their anger, but the movement's leaders worked successfully to tamp down violent retaliation among their supporters so we could get to the Civil Rights Legislation that we needed.    

So I'd say that there was plenty of anger underneath that peaceful movement.   As a nation, we were lucky it  was being constrained by it's leaders.   In Trump's case,  he is playing with fire as he stokes white fears of immigrants, muslims, minorities, etc.   Since he doesn't measure what he has to say, and is drawn to inflammatory & exaggerated verbaige... he is doing the opposite of what Dr. King did.

Its a mistake to see Trump's choice of messaging as benign.   It's going to make race relations worse, & religious intolerance commonplace.   If that what he thinks makes America great, well........ No.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 12:43:14 PM

Yes, I agree with you that MLK wisely led the people down a path that would result in success, and they passed the Civil Rights act.  But at that time, it was pretty clear that they knew what they were peacefully fighting for.  But, can you, in all honesty say you know what Al Sharpton and Black Lives Matter really want?  Hillary told their leaders that they needed to have an actionable platform and they told her they didn't need any advice from a white woman.  And that was very foolish, because she is right.  MLK took the high road.  And I think what mostly drove whites against the civil rights movement was fear of change and retribution. 

If you listen carefully to what Trump actually said about Muslims is that we should suspend allowing to migrate, until we know who we are letting in.  He did not say he wanted to permanently  ban Muslims.  Our system of visas and allowing people to just disappear into the country is seriously hosed up.  And why should we look the other way at illegal immigration, when we have a system for legal immigration?  And yes, he said that he wanted to deport illegal immigrants, but he also said that there should be a way to let them back in legally. 

I look at Hillary pandering to the black vote, by trotting out the mothers of the thugs, i.e., criminals.  Can you say that you don't feel angry when you see the riots that errupted because Michael Brown threatened the police and got shot?  Do you believe that if you acted threateningly towards the police that they wouldn't shoot you because you are white?  I would't take that bet. 

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 2:55:54 PM

Well, I can't be a spokesman for the Black Lives Matter organization, but I think its a fair bet that what they want is to have fewer black people shot & killed in this country.   Black Lives Matter.   All Lives Matter.   But the truth is that White Lives have always mattered more than Black lives, and that's what energizes their movement.  

No Al Sharpton fan here, he is the black Donald Trump.   I very much do endorse Hillary Clinton reaching out to alienated minorities, letting them know that there is a way to move forward.   That's what I want in a leader, not someone who will tell them to take their concerns and shove it.   i remember Newark NJ as well as Ferguson, MO.

As far as the Muslim ban goes, I think you are excusing Trump's position and not examining what this would really mean.   Even a temporary ban on a particular religious group is completely contrary to an essential American Ideal, and a precedent setting policy we couldn't possibly justify or enforce.   If we ban Muslims from entering the country, does that mean that Muslim US citizens can leave but not return?   Does it mean that US customs agents will be asking everyone to declare their religious affiliation on entry in order to apply their screening criteria?   If it applies to Sunni's and Shia, does it also apply to Alawites?   Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, are we banning them, too?   What about our allies, like the King of Jordan?   Muslim Diplomats?   Are we going to apply this to anyone born into a Muslim culture, or only those who refuse to renounce their faith at our border?   Do you think Sikhs could be mistaken for Muslims?   Does anybody around here even know the difference?   Will we give Grover Norquist's Muslim wife a pass?  

And when was the last time someone wrote a sweeping policy that states it will be in force "until we figure out what's going on"?   Pretty open ended language.  Sorta like saying we should invade & occupy Iraq until we figure out what is going on.

Just like kicking 11 million immigrants out of the country is completely unrealistic & totally damaging to the US, banning a particular group of people because of their religion is counter to everything we have believed so far.   

But just so you know, I would be in favor of banning all Presbyterians from entering the country.   They can't be trusted & have beady eyes.   Catholics, too.  Their leader is an opponent of capitalism and may well contribute to undermining our way of life.   I hope my Catholic & Presbyterian friends understand, but they are going to have to give up some of their rights so the rest of us can feel safe.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 3:59:40 PM

I have co-workers who I consider friends who are Muslim, but how many terrorist acts this century have been perpetrated by Catholics and Presbyterians?  I agree an outright ban would be excessive, but increased scrutiny - and yes, profiling, certainly would not.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Shorty
Date:	3/3/2016 4:36:57 PM

Why does your beloved Trump act like a racist jack ass if he isn't one? 

Name:	HARRY -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 4:51:22 PM

Fear by the protesters was a factor in the protests of the 60's. They knew what would and did happen. Also I agree they had decades of hate from actions that many of them witnessed firsthand. Many of these idiots protesting today don't even know why they are three.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 5:04:01 PM

You are in a small minority of people in this part of the country who has direct & personal relations with Muslim people then, and I hope you make wise use of that knowledge by sharing it regularly.   Yes, we do need to protect the nation from terrorists as much as we can without compromising our basic freedoms or legitimizing discrimination.   Practically speaking, the worst thing we can do if we want to win the war on terror is to increase racial &/or religious discrimination.   Doing that just feeds the monster and promotes people to join terrorist groups.

When I look at the Terrorism problem writ large, it has to include extremists from any number of religions.  It's a mistake to sell the idea that Muslims are dangerous by pushing these border safety policies too far.   Maybe we should be pushing the idea that any religious zealotry is dangerous, and we should be screening all sorts of people for their degree of religious affiliation & devotion.   But it's obvious that would be going too far.  No such policy could be formed or enforced.  I hope.

As to profiling, I always thought that was a legitimate way to train police officers.   In application on the streets, however, it can be counterproductive... especially in communities that already have too-tense race relations.   Ferguson MO is probably a good case in point.   A law enforcement tool misapplied can result in more problems sometimes.   Same with a ban on Muslims.

It is important to know who is coming into this country and for what purpose.  We badly need a rational reassessment of immigration policy and border security and when enough people in this country quit being so hysterical about it, we might get it done.   But the national conversation we are having isn't very reasonable.

For the record, I just don't think any of the Presbyterians have been caught yet.  They are just that sneaky.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	You might call it a cultural memory.
Date:	3/3/2016 5:17:22 PM

If you can only trace your family back a couple of generations to a slave that was sold at auction, if your Aunt tells you stories of being refused common decencies like where she could drink water or order a hamburger, if you are pretty sure that you have white relatives as a result of slave times but none of them ever invite you to family reunions.....

You might just feel that the Civil Rights Movement isn't over yet.   The conditions that led up to that movement remain very much in people's minds because it is family history to them.   

To many white people though, their movement should have been over when we gave them the vote and integrated the schools.  That's just not the way it is.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 6:26:40 PM

Lol. Look at the prefix "Presby" and a lot will be explained.

My little foray back into the working world finds me in Rosslyn, Virginia.  For all practical purposes other than crossing the river I am in DC.  Washington has always been an international city, but seems to be more so these days.  Just in our little group of about ten cyber security workers, (all US citizens, all with a security clearance) I am the only WASP.  Next is a Hispanic from San Antonio, An A/E from Georgia, then an Ethiopian, a Kenyan, a Ugandan, an Indian, an Egyptian, and two Nigerians.  Now mind you I work for a minority owned business, but the majority of the workforce was born somewhere outside the US.  THE Egyptian is Muslim, and we discuss the quandary of good Muslims and extreme Muslims relatively often.  There is another gent who has a Muslim father and Korean mother, but was raised Muslim.  I am blessed in that both are comfortable discussing their faith openly and disavow the actions of the crazies.  It would be a travesty to deny either entry just because of their faith, yet we have figure out how to protect ourselves from those like the California shooters.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 8:52:40 PM

Once again, Trump only said that we should put a ban on Muslims entering the country until we figure out who they are and what their affliations might be and figuring out a system to do so.   I'd go so far as to suggest a moritorium on all migration, until this country can stop giving temporary visas and have people disappear.  We don't know where they are, we don't know what they are doing.  I don't think that is irrational.  I think it is irrational to continue doing what we are doing, when so obviously, it is not working.  No one ever said anything about banning U.S. citizens from returning home. 

You know, worrying about not  offending anyone has brought us to this point. When the common denominator is that the terrorists are Muslim, then we need to make that distinction.  And since I am a Catholic - the day that Catholics start doing terrorist attacks in this country, then they can ban my kind too. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 8:55:23 PM

Just never mention the word "crusade".  ??

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	You might call it a cultural memory.
Date:	3/3/2016 9:01:24 PM

Do you also believe in reparations? 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 9:05:34 PM

Well, I think that was some time ago... It's probably time to let Catholics off the hook for that one.  And as far as I know, the Crusades didn't take place in the United States.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	3/3/2016 10:21:41 PM

Following that logic, blacks shouldn't be holding on to slavery as a reason to think current day whites owe them something.  Muslims use the term crusade as a rallying point, and as well as I remember Christian equaled Catholic, because the Crusades were pre-Martin Luther.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	You might call it a cultural memory.
Date:	3/3/2016 10:54:11 PM

No.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	3/4/2016 1:57:40 PM

Well, I don't think the current day blacks should hold on to slavery as a reason something is owed to them.  I don't think they are owed anything but a chance - to go to school and obtain an education; a chance to have a job/career; and a shot at a good life.  If any former slaves are still living, I think they derserve an apology and reparations; however, I don't think anything is owed to their decendants.  It's been a while since Lincoln freed the slaves; since MLK led his people and the resulting Civil Rights bill was passed.  Society is fully integrated. There have been many, many programs offered for education, career training, and my limited observation is that the workplace is not nearly as biased as it once was, in terms of opportunity for minorities (and women, for that matter).  But anyone has to make an effort - nothing is owed.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja- PS
Date:	3/4/2016 2:08:37 PM

I don't think Muslims are owed anything either and that includes changing our culture to please them or bending over backwards to ensure they feel welcome.  I don't think on the whole that Muslims are bad people, any more that I think black people are bad people.  But in the case of terrorists, I agree with Donald Trump with regard to not being as concerned with collateral damage.  If you want to win, you have to make it painful for people to cross you.  You have to break their wll to fight, and obviously what we are doing now is not breaking their will. (Guess you can tell I'm not a former State Department employee who thinks you can negotiate an agreement with your enemies)

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja- PS
Date:	3/4/2016 2:42:06 PM

I agree with both of your posts.  Bluntly, when it comes to the extremists it is kill or be killed.  The only way the crazies can be beaten is through strength, military, financial, diplomatic, and most important the strength of will to do what it requires to keep from being the "be killed" part of the equation.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja- PS
Date:	3/4/2016 4:35:48 PM

Agree.