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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/21/2012 10:41:29 AM (updated 4/21/2012 10:43:37 AM)
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Am I correct in my thinking that the NRA and gun proponents in general make the claim that the more people who have guns and the less restriction we have on gun ownership, the less gun crime there will be? If this is so, why isn't the US the safest advanced nation in the world? We have more guns per capita and fewer gun restrictions than any other advanced nation. I'm not sure about the current rates, but several years ago I saw a stat that every European Community nation had a murder rate with guns of less than 10% of the US. Now don't give me the BS it is because the criminals in the US all have guns and the honest people don't...far more of the honest people here have guns than pretty much anywhere. Just a curiosity by someone who has never owned nor desired to own a gun and who has lived in intown Atlanta for 40 years without ever being confronted by a criminal (with or without a gun).
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| Name: |
HARRY
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/21/2012 10:49:32 AM
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It's called the culture we live in.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Flawed logic as usual
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Date:
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4/21/2012 11:00:09 AM
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Archie, very nice try but the murder rate in the U.S. has nothing to do with the number of guns we own. Three ways to critically examine this using logic and reason that demonstrate your flawed thinking. First is to examine the microcosm experience in areas of the U.S. that have signficant gun restrictions like Washington, DC or Chicago. Exact opposite of your thesis. Second is to examine other countries with very high gun ownership such as Israel. Exact opposite of your thesis. Third is to examine other countries with restrictive gun laws like Mexico or Trinidad & Tobago. Exact opposite of your thesis. You see Archie, the existence of guns have nothing to do with the violence in the U.S. That an inanimate object like a gun or a knife or a machete or a baseball bat is used in a violent crime has absolutely nothing to do with the cause of the crime. I could educate you on the socioeconomic and cultural reasons but that's for another post.
So you are once again wrong but thanks for driving by. Its always fun to skewer you with logic and reason. Let me suggest a very comprehensive book on the subject. Its called More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott. Very thorough and detailed examination of the facts instead of the raw emotion when something tragic or criminal happens.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
So true.....a culture distorted by leftists
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Date:
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4/21/2012 11:01:26 AM
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that have destroyed the family (especially in the black community).
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/21/2012 9:36:06 PM
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OK, I'm a gun owner.... But I do think the lax and unrestrictive gun laws are going to have to change, the price we pay for keeping them so loose is contributing to pretty rampant violence at levels we haven't ever seen before. 50 years ago, There is no way that a kid brought a gun to school ....and while there could be a number of reasons why they do this now... the fact is that easy access to guns on the street allows people to have a shorter fuse, maybe even encourages confrontations that we used to avoid.
George Zimmerman is a pretty good case in point. You aren't supposed to carry a weapon when on Citizen's Crime Patrol. Being trained in the use of guns isn't about taking a weekend course at the shooting range... it's about what decisions you make and what the likely repercussions of them would be. Zimmerman pursued a kid, kid felt threatened and confronted him, he made the decision to pull out and fire at some point. A terrible point to have gotten to, but if the gun had not been there, Trayvon Martin would be alive & George Zimmerman would not be on his way to being the star of the next OJ Simpson trial.
The shooter in Norway is showing us how unhinged he was, he doesn't feel remorse and seriously thinks he should be hailed as a hero. Similar episodes of really unstable folks are in the US news everyday.
In the last two weeks 17 yr old Summer Moody (a white, Baldwin Co Vollyball player) has just been shot by guys who started out to run off some supposed burglers. These guys probably worried that the burglers were armed, too. "Warning shots fired", and Ms Moody takes a round in her head... still alive, but just barely. That's not the proper way to fire a warning shot. Poor judgement under duress is the problem. Dark night, plenty of guns.
Logic, especially that proposed by MM, isn't going to fix Summer Moody or prevent those hunters from getting their lives back either.
But I doubt we will change the laws. Americans love their guns, the Right successfully associated gun ownership with patriotism, self-determination, and apple pie. It's sacrosanct, for now. But as time goes on, so will the need for taking a look at how easy it is to buy a gun. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is such a shallow sound bite. Unstable, scared, untrained people with guns kill people.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/21/2012 9:41:11 PM
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Can't remember, but seems I read that 83.7% of all gun murders are caused by democrats or democrat wannabes (illegals). Demographics my friend. Before the democrats could steal a gun, they killed each other with axes, knives, razors, and ice picks.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/21/2012 9:51:08 PM
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You know, that's that kind of belief about the world that worries me. You have the whole thing worked out, create an enemies list and plenty of venom to go with it..... Please don't volunteer for Citizen's Patrol in my neighborhood.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/21/2012 9:56:04 PM
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correction: Logic, especially that from MM, isn't going to save Summer Moody nor prevent those shooters from having to carry this burden for the rest of their lives.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Wixie Poo Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/21/2012 10:29:40 PM
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Wixie Poo
WIX, you seem to remember.......I seem to remember that I read somewhere that anyone who has a screen name with 3 letters or less has an IQ less than 83 cause as they can't remember a name with more letters. A more accurate number of the murders by party was done when Gore and Bush collided. The numbers were average murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 6.5 and by Bush 4.1. Yes, Dems kill more but Gawd not 83% of all murders. Dems kill during robberies in urban areas and Repubs are passion murders in smaller towns.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/21/2012 10:40:32 PM
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Truth hurts don't it copper. I don't have to try to rationalize to myself why I am part of a political party of the greatest crowd of misfits, losers, and blood suckers in history, like you do. Tell me this, how can you support abortion of babies and at the same time hate the death penalty as punishment. A good democrat must live a really conflicted life.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
GF, that's a stupid statement
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Date:
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4/21/2012 10:53:41 PM
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I wouldn't be talking about my IQ, if I were you. What exactly do your irrelevant stats have to do with my post. I guess you assume that all murders in Gore's counties were committed by democrats and all murders committed in Bush's counties were done by Republicians. I really wish I could live in an area without democrats, but that ain't likely. Sorry, your dumbness is showing.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/21/2012 11:09:45 PM
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Where did you seem to read 83%?? That is one of those myths you like to spread. Sorry my numbers confused you.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/21/2012 11:38:53 PM
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I carry. Professionally trained, frequently practiced, accomplished in the "eight steps", work diligently to improve situation recognition and reduce required response time. There are evil people out there, and they may be OK as long as they stay away from me and mine. But, in the event they choose to target me, or mine, the response will be greater than they expected. Don't carry without training and practice. People here are still passing judgement on the Sanford FL amd Baldwin County tragedies as if they know the facts. They dont, so the best that can be said is their judgment is flawed. My best friends brother was the Dallas shooter last Monday. At home, readying for work, teen son about to leave for class, doorbell ringing repeatedly, headed toward door, and heard kicks against reinforced side door, then, exterior door to laundry room kicked open. Son called 911, dad grabbed shotgun and stood in kitchen, as intruders crossed through laundry room toward kitchen door, he hollered to them to stop as he had a gun. The door crash and warning was heard by 911 operator. They kicked through the locked kitchen door, and he fired one shot. It blew the intruder back to the exterior laundry room door. The 14 year old intruder died on the floor. The other 2, one 14, the other 13, ran off but were captured a short time later. It's a damn shame that so many lives are changed as a result of this. It's a damn shame that a 14 year old kid died. It's a damn shame that somewhere, someone forgot to teach them that their decisions have consequences. Its a damn shame that their are people who think that anything you have, including life, is theirs for the taking. Its a damn shame we have someone in the white house inflaming class and race war. Its a damn shame the NBPP says the war on whites starts Tuesday, that Calypso Louie, while not stating a date, says in a few days. It's a damn shame that these other damn shames do nothing but reinforce my decision to carry, and to make sure that appropriate home defense weapons are at the ready.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/21/2012 11:39:19 PM
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Yeah, you don't have to rationalize. Got it. And that's dangerously close to the kind of violent extremist rhetoric we need to be really concerned about.
C'mon... does some crackpot story about the President eating dog meat even belong in this thread? And ridiculous comments about the party membership of people who shoot at or murder others? Really?
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Redefine much
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Date:
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4/21/2012 11:53:06 PM
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"violent extremist rhetoric"? Not by any stretch. it is a reasonably accurate description of today's "progressive".
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/22/2012 12:11:21 AM
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Training like you describe is extremely rare among gun owners, wouldn't you say? And reading about the shooting incident you describe, I'm puzzled. Why would 3 adolescents try to break into an occupied house, even kicking a door down after hearing the occupant shout that he had a gun? You describe a bad situation, but I'd like to have a few more answers about how everybody made the decisions they did....
I don't claim any special knowledge of the incidents in Florida or Baldwin Co, but I think all you have to do is read the story to see that these were avoidable tragedies stemming from very bad judgement and the presence of guns.
Would you think that the training you have should be the minimum standard for a permit? Do you think there should be any rules to gun ownership at all? Do you think that assault rifles are just another home defense weapon? Is listening to some crack pot make up stories about 'a race war' really how we should be thinking about this?
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/22/2012 12:47:22 AM
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Don't know the answer to your first question, answered the second in my rant. I don't hunt, am not a recreational shooter, a gun is my defensive weapon of choice, and I want to make sure I know everything I can about the how and when to use it. That's me. As for assault rifles for home defense, what is your definition of assault rifle? And, those crackpots are inflaming an entire underclass. Ignore at your own risk.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
It seems the consensus is
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Date:
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4/22/2012 8:37:58 AM
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Guns don't kill people, culture kills people. Sorry, but there are areas of east London with as violent a culture as any part of south Chicago or southwest Atlanta, but the murder rate in general and with guns in particular, is a tiny percentage. I know you folks will never accept it, but it is not culture but the availability of guns to crazy people that is the problem Statistics show that in the USA a large majority of gun deaths (even criminally intentional gun deaths) are with a legally obtained gun The NRA has this nation's politicians by the Balls. NRA even saw to it that those on the no-fly list must keep their 2d amendment "rights". A stand even the majority of NRA membership does not support. Guns do not kill people but crazy and careless people with guns sure do!
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
If the NRA has politicians
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Date:
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4/22/2012 9:32:02 AM
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By the balls, then that's a good thing. Someone needs to get a really firm grip.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Hey, GF
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Date:
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4/22/2012 9:37:52 AM
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You posted a really stupid statistic at 10:29 pm. How about defending how those stats are relevant. Something bout democrats killing in the hood and passionate Republicans killing in small towns. Come on, help us out.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
It seems the consensus is
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Date:
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4/22/2012 11:10:52 AM
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Agreed, Architect.
The Right Wing has made gun ownership and unrestricted gun rights a cornerstone issue well above it's real relevance in America. Ted Nugent has become a role model of patriotism.
But how do you craft a law that restricts gun ownership to rational,
trained individuals? That’s the rub, and
maybe it’s impossible. That being the
case, we will probably have to settle for whittling away at the problem in
small steps… like prohibiting assault weapons, longer waiting periods, or required training. Even on this forum, among people who don’t
think of themselves as crazies, it becomes quickly evident that the conditions
exist in them for spinning off into violence.
There are lots of George Zimmerman’s around here.
Louis Farrakan or what’s
left of the Black Panthers must surely love it when they hear that some white
guy read a rant about a race war, then announces he is arming himself and his
family in preparation for the battle.
By doing so, the white guy has become part of the problem… he is sucked
into the hysteria, & making threats
of his own.
All this loose & inflammatory talk, all the threats and
counter-threats, name-calling and hostility seen on this forum is just evidence
that Pogo was right. We have met the
enemy, and it is us.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Where did I read it
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Date:
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4/22/2012 11:16:47 AM
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We ought to take your concerns about abortion to a different thread, and we can talk about why it's a really bad idea to force people who don't want children to have them anyway.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
[Message deleted by author]
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Date:
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4/22/2012 12:36:38 PM (updated 4/22/2012 12:38:01 PM)
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Hey, GF
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Date:
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4/22/2012 1:17:14 PM (updated 4/22/2012 1:41:41 PM)
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Think about it. Most killings in the big dem urban areas involve a robbery or a drug deal gone bad. In the small towns in red states there is often a fight or argument referred to as a passion killing. That is what I read and it makes sense to me.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
Hey, GF
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Date:
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4/22/2012 2:57:24 PM
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Do democrats live in red states? Do democrats do 83.7% on the gun murders?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Predictable thread for sure
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Date:
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4/22/2012 3:38:02 PM
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Rather than responding to the substance of my post, because the left wing nuts feel bad for this young girl and her family we should all set aside reason, logic and facts and emotionally agree to further restrictions on our freedom. Guns have always been and will always be an inanimate object. If people use guns to commit crimes how about this novel concept, punish the criminal instead of law abiding citizens?!?!? I know that is anathema to the left because no one is responsible for their own behavior, well that is unless some guys want to dress up like women and bugger each other. That is a right worth fighting for but gun ownership in accordance with the second amendment of the Constitution is not.
Copperline, Archie and the others shamefully taking advantage of these two isolated and unrelated events should educate yourself by reading the book I recommended. If you can handle the truth (typed with a Jack Nicholson voice over) you might actually learn something. Focus on the real problem folks, only then can we begin to resolve it.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Predictable thread for sure
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Date:
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4/22/2012 3:54:52 PM
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Without passing judgement as I own a rifle, I often wonder if someone's opinion of that inanimate object changes if a loved one is the victim?
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| Name: |
Tall Cotton
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/22/2012 8:49:42 PM
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I carry and train regularly. I hope that I never have to draw my weapon, but I won't hesitate should I feel threatened or that my family is threatened.
Be sure that murder is defined correctly. Self defense is not murder. Accidental discharge is not murder. Murder is a legal term that is narrowly defined.
The Second Amendment says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Until that is amendet is overturned, this whole discussion is a moot point. However, politicians and activist judges have, on this question, narrowly defined a very broad statement.
The term "assault weapon" was coined to incite opposition. The AR-15 that I own looks just like those carried by our military. However, there is a BIG difference. My AR is semi-automatic. Military weapons are fully automatic. There is no difference in the rate of fire between the AR and a shotgun in a dove field. People don't like them simply because they look "deadly", and that's a good thing in a self defense situation.
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| Name: |
Tall Cotton
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| Subject: |
Another request for comments from gun owners
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Date:
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4/22/2012 8:57:56 PM
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This article is a good read.
URL: Kennesaw Georgia Law
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Another request for ANSWERS from gun owners
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Date:
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4/22/2012 9:02:07 PM
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Why am I not surprised that no one of you gun lovers has answered either of the two questions that I initially posted??
1/ Is it the opinion of the NRA and other gun lovers that the more people who have guns the safer is society?
2/ If the answer is "yes", why isn't the USA, based on the current per capita gun ownership which is by far the most armed advanced nation, the safest nation on earth?
Yeah yeah MM...you answered "It's the culture". Well, how does that explain it? If more guns the safer is the mantra, it would seem we would be getting safer and safer as more and more carry regardless of culture. Someting obviously ain't working!
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| Name: |
Tall Cotton
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| Subject: |
Another request for ANSWERS from gun owners
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Date:
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4/22/2012 9:36:40 PM
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Answer to # 1 & # 2, please see the link listed below in my other post. In a controlled "experiment" your theory was proved false. It was not access to guns that increases crime. Based on the situation in Kennesaw, we should require every head of household to own a gun and ammunition, regardless of their training and proficiency.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Thanks for making my point
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Date:
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4/23/2012 9:43:12 AM
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Maybe, maybe not. Depends on their frame of mind and how emotional they are about it which would cause them to misplace their anger away from the actual cause and toward an inanimate object. That is my entire point GF so I thank you for allowing me to make it again. A criminal uses a gun to commit a crime and we blame the gun? How stupid is that?!?!? A child gets access to a gun and accidentally shoots someone and we blame the gun instead of the irresponsible or inattentive gun owner? How stupid is that?!?!?!?
This is just symptomatic of our current society that we take a tragic or criminal event and try to play on emotion to forward our own political or personal agenda. Its how we got failed policies like welfare.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Willfully blind or invincibly ignorant?!?!?
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Date:
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4/23/2012 9:50:34 AM
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I told you to read the book that answers your stupid questions. I am not going to read it to you like an adult does to their toddler although the analogy is probably appropriate in this case. Honestly Archie, your thesis implied by your questions is demonstrably false and I provided several examples. Pull your head out of your liberal rear end and educate yourself.
If you can tell I am exasperated you are right. I proved you wrong. I gave you a good summary source. The rest is up to you. You can either blather on in invincible ignorance or you can really find the answer to your question. Its really up to you but if you were a horse led to water you would be dying of thirst before our very eyes. Sigh...........
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