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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
More of What They Didn't Read
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Date:
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5/6/2010 6:53:37 PM
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My wife is an accountant and brings home information sheets on tax code changes brought about by the "Health Care" Reform Bill.
Interesting examples of little "extra" provisions that were thrown (sneaked) in:
1. Information reporting. Businesses must file an information return (e.g., 1099) for all payments of $600 or more in a calendar year to a single payee, including corporations. So, if Mom and Pop burger joint buys $600 per year in supplies from Sam's Club, they have to go get Sam's tax ID number, keep track of what all they bought, and report it at the end of the year. What do you reckon that will cost in lost productivity?
2. Tax on indoor tanning services. Health care? CAT, watch out, they might be taxing you on the bed in your shop...
3. Economic substance doctrine. The Act codifies the economic substance doctrine, a doctrine that has absolutely nothing to do with health care.
Looking especially at the first item, it surely looks to me like they are laying the groundwork for the VAT....and the establishment of the US version of the Italian "Guardia Finanzia" - the money police.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
#2 is a tax on white folks
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Date:
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5/6/2010 7:49:36 PM
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Ever see a brown skinned individual in a tanning salon?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
More of What They Didn't Read
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Date:
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5/6/2010 8:37:46 PM
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The tax on the tanning,while not directly related to health care, is indirectly related. Studies have shown that tanning in a tanning bed is a lot worse for you than regular sun. It's rather like a tax on smoking and is supposed to discourage people from doing something bad.
Melanoma is on the rise. In fact, the husband of a friend just died from it -- in his 50's.
I'm generally not in favor of legislation that tries to force people into doing the right thing for themselves. I doubt anyone that is really into the stupidity of tanning will stop doing it just because it is taxed. But, if we get a little revenue from stupidity, what's so bad about it.
If one is in business, one should be keeping track of their expenses anyway... at the end of the day, how else would you know if you made a profit? So I'm not sure I think this is a significant "lost productivity" issue. But, what does it have to do with health care? Got me. But then they always attach totally unrelated items to the major bills. How else would they get this stuff through?
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
More of What They Didn't Read
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Date:
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5/6/2010 9:02:57 PM
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I suspect it is a way to raise revenue from increased tax collection. It is a way to force those who do not keep good records on money they receive for services. kinda like 2 sets of books...cash payments and checks. Now, the IRS will have another enforcer...the buyer. I certainly would not want to be caught paying you and you not declare it when this takes effect. The additional revenue is a way to pay for Obamacare. It is like the 1099 you receive from your bank for the money you pay them for interest on your mortgage.
Too much money slips through untaxed in the "underground" cash system.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hound, you don't know squat about business
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5/6/2010 9:12:17 PM
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Getting all this information from a vendor and providing it to the IRS takes a huge amount of time, especially for a business that has lots of vendors like ours. Now I will have to get a tax ID number and fill out a form for probably twice the usual number of vendors. It is just another reason why businesses are fleeing the U.S. We are dying a death of a thousand cuts....
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
More of What They Didn't Read
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Date:
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5/6/2010 10:16:48 PM
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We all know that the "reform" bill was more about control than reform. My wife replaced the bulbs in her tanning bed last year, so we will dodge that tax/fee for a couple of years, but we spend enough time outdoors during the Summer that I imagine we will get hit with the unhealthy activities tax (and listening to old music/drinking beer/cutting grass with a gasoline mower/grilling with LP (no BGE yet) fee).
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
More of What They Didn't Read
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Date:
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5/6/2010 10:32:31 PM
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Talk about a slippery slope with "unhealthy stuff" - just like a greased slide. At the house we have a retaining wall that is about 8 feet high over our driveway - a potential work-ending injury if we fall off. At the lake, I often cut the grass in the morning before the dew has burned off - slip and fall waiting to happen. Tuesday is Pizza Hut buffet with friends, and then Thursday we hit the Chinese buffet. As far as the "stupidity" of tanning - I spend way more hours under the Sun than the tanning bed (I have logged about one hour in the past 5 years), so how stupid am I for allowing myself to burn, and how much should I pay the Government for those transgressions?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
er, I'm an MBA
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Date:
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5/6/2010 10:48:37 PM
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and you are a geologist? And I don't know anything about business?
It is highly unlikely that a Mom and Pop pizza shop, as Hodja brought up, is going to have dozens of vendors. And you likely have a few accountants to keep track of your expenses. This is just another report.
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you are not using a sunscreen and you get melanoma then I'd like you to be taxed quite a bit for your stupidity. That's why my health premiums are so high.
Quite seriously, a good friend of mine lost her husband last week. Her husband was a field geologist, in addition to being an expert skiier and mountain climber. In other words, he spent a lot of time outside (without sun screen). Late last Fall, he found a nodule on his neck. They biopsied, it was melanoma and that quickly it had spread to his lymph nodes. And now he is dead. He was 53. Left behind a wife (who is ill herself), a grown daughter and 3 adorable grandbabies.
So tell me again why deliberately going into a salon, and subjecting yourself to UV rays without any sun protection isn't stupid?
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If you drive, you are placing yourself on an endangered list, when you eat foods that are unhealthy - not sure what healthy really is - you endanger your life. Come up and enjoy "The Bright Star" restaurant - really good Greek food, but in Bessemer, so make sure you and Feb are prepared (.380 in Summer, .45 in winter). Who draws the line on behavior, and what should the cost be to those who do not?
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
If
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Date:
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5/6/2010 11:16:33 PM
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To follow this line of thought.......
If you ride a bike without a helmet and fall, requiring any type of healthcare, then that is justification for a tax on bicycles?
If you don't put down the rubber mat in the hotel shower, slip and fall, requiring any type of healthcare, insurance won't pay for it?
When 2 people with a family history of inherited disease have a child, who then develops the disase, the healthcare system (aka government in our Brave New World) will be justified, and "morally compelled" (for the good of society)to sterilize/segregate the parents/child?
All of these things will keep your health care costs down.
What about just paying for healthcare when you need it, like your plumber?
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
er, I'm an MBA, without a clue.
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Date:
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5/7/2010 7:46:53 AM
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This proves what a joke even the instutions of higher learning become. An MBA who never spent a DAY in business.
Mom and Pop Pizza Vendor list:
Bank, at least one.
Credit Card Processing, one.
Grocery, at least two.
Beverage, at least one.
Beer/wine, at least one.
Produce, at least one.
Pest control, one.
Utilities, at least one, most likely several.
Phone, one.
Cable, one if there are TV's.
Cleaning service, most likely.
Accountant, one.
Insurance Agent, at least one.
Chemical sales, at least one.
Office supplies, at least one.
Maintence/Repair, at least one, could be a dozen in itself.
There is more than a dozen off the top of my head. There are MANY others that will come up in the course of a year.
Now let me explain to the MBA why some say 'at least'. Folks that have run businesses before understand that you ALWAYS need to keep a vendor as a 'back up' in case any number of contingencies come up that may prevent the primary vendor from being used. This also keeps them in competition with each other, which is good for the business. It also means that if need be, you can switch vendors at the drop of a hat.
If I was a printer I would get into the 1099 business.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
er, I'm an MBA
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Date:
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5/7/2010 8:25:42 AM
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Yeah, when I was working on my MBA at University of Texas I just sat there amused listening to professors wax on about business and being in business and thinking they didn't have a clue.
Hound, I may be a geologist by academic training but I have spent the last 20 years of my career running businesses. And over ten years ago I started a business from scratch and have grown it to over $35 million in revenue with offices across the U.S. and Canada. I have forgotten more about business that you will ever know and would ever learn getting an MBA.
Your comment about the 1099 issue not being a big deal was all the evidence I need of your complete ignorance about what it really takes to run a business and how needless regulation is a burden that costs actual money.
An MBA, really! I have several of them that work for me and I still remember one telling me they learned more following me around for a day trying to set up a new company than they learned in six years getting a degree in business and two years getting an MBA. I am sure you got a nice raise working for the government after you got your MBA.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Actually only took them 4 years
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Date:
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5/7/2010 8:27:58 AM
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to get a business degree. Is it just me or is it wearing thin being lectured by a life-long government employee about life in the private sector?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
er, I'm an MBA
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Date:
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5/7/2010 8:29:05 AM
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I have never run a small business, but my wife the accountant deals with multiple small businesses on a daily basis. Those folks struggle to keep up with the paperwork as it is, and to comply with this law they will have to keep much closer tabs on what, to this point, were simply petty cash transactions.
Just another report? That is pure BS and just more of the good ole big government mentality that unfairly downplays the real impact on the people having to comply. And even if these small businesses use accountants, do you think the extra accounting work will come at no additional cost? Some of them are nice guys, but their time comes at a cost and the expect remuneration.
MBA, SchmemBA. Having an MBA means NOTHING when it comes to the details of day to day running of a small business. Have you run a small business under the current reporting climate?
Having an MBA just means you were able to take some courses and learn some high-level principles, not that you can apply them in the small business context. It doesn't take an MBA to run a Mom and Pop operation, but it does take a lot of gumption, common sense, hard work, and willingness to take risks.
Until you've walked in their shoes please don't pass something like this off as trivial.
And I still think this is just laying the groundwork for the VAT....
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
The other side of the coin.
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Date:
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5/7/2010 9:29:07 AM
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Ok, lets pretend that life works like Hound's fantasies. How much money and resources will be expended by our Wonderfull Imperial Federal Guvmint receiving, sorting, recording, and reporting all these 1099's?
It's a rhetoricall question Hound.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
All I can say is.....
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Date:
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5/7/2010 12:14:09 PM
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WOW...... these over-educated non-producers never cease to amaze and, please believe me, I'm not singling anyone out in particular. It just continues to amaze me that people think advanced degrees= success. While this is probabaly true for Doctors and Lawyers, an advanced degree means nothing in the "small business" world. Look, I'm all for smart people, it's just those "smart people" who have to tell you they're smart kind of pi$$ me off.
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don't forget about the printer for menus
computers/POS
supplies
sign company
rent
clean the beer taps
furniture
repairs - ovens, building
equipment
.... ah these mom and pop operations don't have many
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
your absolutely right of course.
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Date:
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5/7/2010 4:46:12 PM
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I just scratched the surface and stopped around a dozen cuz hound thinks that is all there would be, because after all, its just another reoert. I thought while I typed it that a quick look through the accountants chart of accounts would reveal dozens more. One might have a dozen advertising vendors alone. Now that $50 ad that runs every month requires a 1099. It just incredulous that someone that never has run a business lectures us that have/are doing it about how easy it is.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
HEY MM
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Date:
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5/7/2010 5:51:16 PM
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“I have forgotten more about business that you will ever know and would ever learn getting an MBA.“
I am rather surprised that you, who at times is quite eloquent, would have to resort to such denigration. While you may dislike Hound’s views, they are after all, just that, her views.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
A Little More Than That
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Date:
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5/7/2010 9:37:20 PM
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She, in a sense, claimed her education lent additional weight to her opinions. I don't mention my Bachelor's in Chemistry and two Master's degrees, one in Management, one in Telecommunications, or the fact that I used to teach a college data communications class when I post because I don't work in any of the three areas. Her MBA doesn't mean a hill of beans unless she can demonstrate that she has walked the walk in addition to talking the talk.
It doesn't take a mental giant, GF, to understand that reading about something in a book in a book and doing it are completely different animals...oh wait, I said GF and mental giant in the same sentence....the most intense oxymoron possible.....
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
A Little More Than That
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Date:
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5/7/2010 10:48:05 PM
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You are to be commended for your degrees. Thanks for sharing it with us. And, you are correct I have never professed to be a mental giant. I am, merely, a father, grandfather, and husband to my one and only wife.
PS I thought of you this past week as our water heater started to leak. I had planned to upgrade from a 40 to 50 gallon but waited too longas the tank was 11 years old. Wife says if I did not spend so much time chatting with all those wing nut bird brains I would have avoided the leak with a new tank. The tank is on concrete and litte water leaked before I emptied it.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
HEY GF
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Date:
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5/7/2010 10:48:36 PM
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I'm not the one who decided to lecture me about her alleged business acumen based on the fact that got an MBA. I will repeat, I have forgotten more about business that she will ever know and ever learn getting an MBA.
She should not opine on topics as an alleged expert when in fact she is clueless as was evidenced by her comment that having to do hundreds of additional 1099's, which is what this law means to a little company like mine, is not a big deal. Perhaps she thinks that because filling out paperwork is all a government employee does. The rest if us actually have to go out and do the million other things to make the money to send to the government at the point of a gun so they can hang more paper and fill out more forms in triplicate.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
HEY GF
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Date:
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5/7/2010 11:01:37 PM
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"I have forgotten more about business that she will ever know and ever learn getting an MBA."
I will say again you can disagree with all she says but why do I feel you have too much class to actually resort to that response to her in person?
I voted for change and I'm proud of it.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
er, I'm an MBA
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Date:
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5/7/2010 11:15:01 PM
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Hound, sometimes you should stick to a subject you know something about. This isn't one of them. Our business is "Mom and Pop". The current administration, and apparently MBA’s retired from central gummint service, think that the latest regulatory requirement is a de minimus burden. Why, if the INCORPORATED state and locally licensed vendors/retailers/suppliers are paid by check, should I, as the purchaser, bear the burden, and related expense, of proof? I now must gather the info from WMT, CCE, PepsiCo, Marathon Oil, Murphy Oil, Exxon, and numerous others, then pay my accountant to prepare documents? Then, I must add the cost of mailing them? Can it get any more assinine? Clearly, with Hounds support, and limited understanding, yes. Sometimes, I feel like Forrest Gump sitting on the bench, saying "stupid is as stupid does". When the vendor cashes the check, or EFT, there is a banking trail. I understand the regs requiring reporting for cash payments, but checks and EFT's? Get a grip. I'll do what I am required to do for these jackasses, but I'll be holding one finger high as I face them. Hound, come visit my office. I'll point out the ENTIRE wall that has all of the current licenses, local, county and state, and inspection results, underground, surface, air, and dispensers, from county, state and feds, all bought and paid for by "Mom and Pop". I suppose, while pursuing your MBA, you were taught that business taxes are costs born exclusively by business.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
HEY GF
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Date:
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5/7/2010 11:17:25 PM
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Is this veiled challenge/threat (like most leftist stratagems)just your way of temporizing when you have nothing much to say?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
A Little More Than That
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Date:
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5/7/2010 11:37:07 PM
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And remember I didn't attempt to use them to support any argument....
I too am a father, grandfather, and married to my one and only lovely wife for 42 years. Other than the fact that we are a rare breed these days, so what?
And other than the grief and inconvenience during the reconstruction process I am now privileged to pay USAA an additional $500 per year on my homeowner's insurance....at that rate it will take USAA about 40 years to recoup their loss. You are fortunate to have the heater on concrete instead of two stories of wood, sheet rock, hardwood, and insulation....
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
CHALLENGE
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Date:
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5/7/2010 11:40:13 PM
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Name the changes that 1) you are proud of and 2) are good for the long term health of our country. Only list those that meet both criteria.
I wait with great anticipation....
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
HEY COMMIE
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Date:
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5/8/2010 12:41:41 AM
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"veiled challenge/threat (like most leftist stratagems)"
What did I write that you consider a veiled challenge or threat?
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
HEY COMMIE
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Date:
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5/8/2010 12:58:54 AM
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Your challenge to a personal response.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
HEY COMMIE
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Date:
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5/8/2010 1:16:23 AM
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By the way, I love it when you call me commie/comrade.......it feels so "left"
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
HEY COMMIE THIS LESS VEILED
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Date:
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5/8/2010 1:21:02 AM
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You are reading too much into what I wrote. While Martini and I disagree most of the time, I admire and respect him and enjoy reading his analysis of issues. I was disappointed with his comment about Hound and her MBA and voiced my opinion as I expected him to be above such a response.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
HEY COMMIE THIS LESS VEILED
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Date:
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5/8/2010 1:28:40 AM
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I understand, and realize that if we were to sit across from one another with a beer, that I would most likely value your existence. We should all recognize the abstract nature of this forum (for good and bad)
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If more Mom and Pop operations were run by MBAs, they wouldn't fail at the alarming rate they do. People understand one aspect of their business, usually how to make or do something, but they don't have a clue about the "business" of running a business.
An MBA teaches you to think strategically. My undersgraduate in business taught me to deal with the day to day.
I always find it amusing that those who don't have an MBA are usually the first ones to condemn is value.
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Been to the Brite Star -- wonderful food. And we're always packing, not to worry.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You Know.
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Date:
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5/8/2010 9:52:29 AM
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Often times, the value of a reporting requirement is to make the preparer focus on numbers for their own education. It's a good analytical tool.
I'm not particularly in favor of reporting requirement, however, studies have found that when people don't have to report, they will rarely read the numbers and identify the trends themselves. Too many businesses, particularly small businesses, try to get by on "wishing and hoping". And that's why they ultimately fail. (except in restaurants of course where bad location and a failure to have an inexpensive meat and 3 usually leads to their demise :-)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Never got an advanced degree Lamont?
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Date:
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5/8/2010 9:54:23 AM
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That's too bad. Education has nothing to do with smartness. It has to do with discipline.
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Is like one of those Komodo dragons -- when he feels he is being threatened, he puffs up to look bigger than he is to try to intimidate his opponent. He hates having his "Master of the Universe" mantle challenged because it rocks his world.
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But I did apply my knowledge and education to solving business problems. Not necessarily accounting problems, but in helping business to find a way to do what they needed to do in terms of international business within the context of national security concerns. I also reviewed business reports in making sure that foreign companies were doing what they were dircted in do in the context of buying US companies. I actually spent a good deal of time with businesses and helping them solve their problems as it related to technology transfer and business development.
I've reviewed and commented on statements of work and work breakdown structures. Led a technical team in negotiations on new government contracts
I've overseent the development and the execution of a multimillion dollar budget to run the agency I retired from.
So I'm not qute neophyte that you would paint me to be.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
You Know.
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Date:
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5/8/2010 10:17:21 AM
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Isn't the point of capitalism to weed out the weak and least competitive? I understand the benefits of examining my actions on a personal basis, and hopefully will learn from those consequences - but are you saying it is better to have a third party direct my behavior?
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
You Know.
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Date:
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5/8/2010 10:17:22 AM
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Isn't the point of capitalism to weed out the weak and least competitive? I understand the benefits of examining my actions on a personal basis, and hopefully will learn from those consequences - but are you saying it is better to have a third party direct my behavior?
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I'm just saying that sometimes the preparations of a report can cause people to look at the numbers from a different perspective.
In a perfect world, people would know to do these things on their own. I think a lot of people open small business flying by the seat of their pants and then they are surprised when it fails.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I prefer a puffer fish
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Date:
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5/8/2010 11:53:05 AM
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But alas, my world was not rocked because I was merely responding to your inane and incorrect post about 1099's and you were the one who puffed up like a Komodo dragon by spouting your MBA as if it means jack. My puffing was a response to yours and I would point out, I think I puffed way more than you.
Someday my little padawan you too may puff as much as me, but I doubt it at least on the issue of knowing business. However, I will grant you can way out puff me on the issue of working for the federal government in DC....ya got me on that one.....
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
You Know.
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Date:
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5/8/2010 12:06:37 PM
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Then how the he!! did we get to be as wealthy a nation as we are WITHOUT all those reports?
Again, you think the intelligentsia have all the answers. You mistakenly belittle the common person as if they don't have a clue just because they don't have an MBA. Well, there are an awful lot of successful businesspeople who don't, and a lot of duds who do.
And yes, I have been in acquisition as well, was a Program Manager and Program Director, running solicitations, reviewing SOWS and project timelines for multimillion dollar projects - but that doesn't qualify me to comment on running a small business. That information comes from my wife who deals with small businesses, their successes, and their foibles, every day. She was aghast at the incredible load this "Health" bill puts on those folks.
It is still just a precursor to the VAT...if you have to report it, they then have the paper trail to tax it. Ain't rocket science.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Overseen, reviewed, studied.....
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Date:
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5/8/2010 12:10:10 PM
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but not actually done. And that's the point. In my business we have people who write documents and manage projects. And we have clients who oversee, review and study the projects we manage and the reports we write. And yet those times when they leave industry for consulting and find themselves having to actually do the work versus overseeing, reviewing and studying they more often fail than succeed. It just isn't the same thing and the doing is always more difficult, more complex and more challenging than those that oversee, review and study could ever imagine....until they try it anyway. Then they get a whole new appreciation for what we do and slink back to industry where they can once again oversee, review and study to their hearts content. In the meantime the rest of us that can, do.
Hound, I am quite sure you know a lot of business principles and have some very well educated ideas about what businesses should and should not do but you don't really know business until you have make a payroll, pay the lawyer because someone is suing you, manage accounts payable and accounts receivable, deal with human resources on awful laws like HIPPA, pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to accountants to do your taxes because they are incomprehensible to the layman, etc., etc.
And I say "make" a payroll, not just push a button that gets someone paid. I mean making sure you have the cash in the bank to not only pay them their salary but also the taxes, insurance and other costs that come along with each employee. Hound, I don't expect you to understand any of this but in the future think about it before you tell us who are actually out there on the front lines of business what we ought to be doing or what some new law means to us.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I bet Bill Gates wishes he had and MBA
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Date:
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5/8/2010 12:29:57 PM
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The problem with the MBA is not the degree itself. You can learn a great many things from MBA courses. I would say though that in the last 11 years of running my own business that many of the principles I learned from the coursework just don't make sense in reality or are extraneous and useless. The exception would be accounting although I still maintain debits and credits are reversed. My CFO tells me I have to get it over it but I just can't let go.
The problem with the MBA is that those that have one (and as I told you I have several that work for me) believe it somehow confers on them some special insight into the world of business that those that are practitioners will never understand. It is just that arrogance and condescension from a piece of paper obtained after having been taught by people, the majority of whom have never been in business.
And having run a multi-million payroll for the government is a far cry from having to make a multi-million dollar payroll. One is pushing a button, the other is laying awake at night hoping the client pays tomorrow because you don't have enough left on your line of credit (which you have personally guaranteed with everything you own) to cover the money the payroll company is going to debit from your account at 2pm the next day. That my friend is business. And that's why when the government adds more bull crap on top of all the other bull crap we get angry.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
Never got an advanced degree Lamont?
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Date:
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5/8/2010 12:38:14 PM
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Hound:
"That's too bad. Education has nothing to do with smartness. It has to do with discipline."
Rarely does a sentence prove it's point better than this one. You have an MBA but still said "has nothing to do smartness". Most 'smart' folks would have used intelligence as opposed to smartness.
But for once I aggree with you. Education and intelligence have no corralation. I know some educated idoits ( with doctorates no less) and I know some highly intelligent folks that didn't even finish high school.
IMHO you can take about any sucessful small business owner and drop thim in a guvmint job and they would do well. VEry few civil servants could run a successful smalll busines.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Never got an advanced degree Lamont?
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Date:
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5/8/2010 6:49:17 PM
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Disagree with part of your statement. While I agree that a good businessman could do just about any Government job, I've seen too many folks from the civilian sector come into Government jobs just to stay for a few months or a couple years and then leave in disgust. I'm sure Hound will argue the point, but the Government is so screwed up that it drives them away. My best customer right now is one who will probably soon go that way.
In the DoD it is a stifling of initiative - not so bad in the Air Force because it is a relatively new service, but the other services are so tied to tradition that innovation most often takes a back seat.
Outside the DoD it is raw politics. I have worked several security tasks for Federal agencies outside the DoD (DHHS, TSA, Treasury) and one thing is universal: When faced with a decision the political consideration takes top priority. Somewhere down the chain is the "is it the right thing to do" question.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
No
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Date:
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5/8/2010 7:26:30 PM
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I posted the original message twice by accident, or so I thought..
I hearby assign the second posting to your answer, and hope it will sink in this time.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
No
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Date:
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5/8/2010 8:09:07 PM
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But the American way is to allow the entrepreneur to sink or swim on his or her own. They don't need someone else to help them, and they especially don't need someone else telling them how to run their business.
The purpose of the $600 reporting is to lay the groundwork for the VAT. C'mon Hound, if you have as much international experience as you say you surely can see that.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
business vs. government.
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Date:
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5/8/2010 8:23:30 PM
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I'd say it's a pretty broad statement to say that you could drop a small business owner into "any" government job. Some jobs, yeah, they could probably do fine. Other jobs, highly technical jobs, I don't think so. When I was working, I don't think I'd high a small business owner with no education over one of the PhD level engineers that worked on some technical issues worth millions to a large US company.
That's the problem, you can't make sweeping statements about anything. Yes, if someone had run a successful business and they had initiative and problem solving ability then they would likely be successful. But take a failed business owner with no common sense, no education and perhaps just good intentions, it is doubtful to me that they would succeed.
Hodja, I would agree with you to some extent. Yes there is a certain amount of stifling of initiative depending on where you sit in the structure. I can remember feeling like that when I worked at a command for the Army. It really hard to make significant changes, because those above you tend to be very conservative and feel more secure in doing things the way they always did them. But, I doubt you'd find too many people that work on a Service Staff that feel that way. Yes, you do have to follow certain protocols, but generally you can put forth new ideas, if you can sell them well enough to others you can get things done.
When I was in OSD, I didn't find that to be the case at all. In fact, it's quite free thinking, but you are responsible for your ideas and their implementations. I was involved working through a number of problems with technology release and foreign companies on JSF -- the biggest problem we had was the State Department -- talk about a group who doesn't believe in change!
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I am persuaded to believe that groundwork is being laid for a VAT.
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belittle the common man. Common sense is a key component to anyone's success and as far as I know, they still don't have any degrees in it.
But, small businesses do fail at an astoundingly high rate. Good intention and a "gut" feeling sometimes are not enough. And I'm sure your wife, the accountant, would tell you that good accounting pratices are key to a successful business -- or they may end up with my BIL, the lawyer, filing for bankruptsy.
But, I'm not trying to belittle anyone who does and succeeds at it.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Yes
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Date:
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5/8/2010 8:48:03 PM
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And that is really scary.....like the "temporary" 1% city sales tax Montgomery added about 10 years ago.....I guess the duration of "temporary" is in the eyes of the beholder because we still have it and nobody in Government seems interested in ending it.
Point is that if a VAT is implemented, its percentage will creep and creep until we are where Italy and other European countries are now -- 20% -- Talk about turning the country and its approach to business upside down.....
I am about to believe that a guy, who I thought was a flake (Tom G), and who who actively advocates throwing them ALL out, may actually have the right answer. Maybe we need drastic action, because we are on a direct path to failure.
By the way, if we throw out the politicians we need to throw out their staffers too. Otherwise it will be business as usual, but with new faces and the same old BS.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
I Don't
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Date:
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5/8/2010 8:49:52 PM
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Point is that we should be free to succeed or fail on our own without government intervention.
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But there you would be wrong. I have done those things. Our small agency had it's own budget -- so yes, we had to pay our rent, pay our utilities, we had a lawyer on staff, I've actually handled personnel both hiring and firing and disciplinary actions, dealt with unions and the EEO, and I had to figure out how we would pay the salaries of our personnel within the money I was given, even when Congress gave them a raise and didn't provide any additional money to cover it. We paid for the travel by our people, and for their training and for their bonus'. If I hired a person who was not currently in the Washington area, I had to figure out how to pay for it. I've had money withdrawn from our account by the OSD Comptroller and still had to make our expenses. We paid for our computer support and just about every service that we had. Even our trash pick up. And did all this within the paramenters and regulations that govern government operations. I didn't have the option of taking loans to cover our expenses for new computers or new equipment. You see, there is no "big government" in the sky that rains money. Did you know I could be removed from my job if the Inspector General or the GAO decided that I misused government money?
It's you MM that have no clue about what it takes to run a 200 person operation within the government.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
Clarification
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Date:
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5/9/2010 8:05:20 AM
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I said 'successfull' small bussiness and I didn't say 'any' guvment job, I said 'a' guvment job. Two clarifires that you seemed to have missed.
And Hodja, I thought after I posted that that most SBO's would pull their hair out if suddenly dropped into a guvment job. Could they do it, absolutely, would they do it for long, most likely not.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
No, you wrong.
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Date:
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5/9/2010 8:42:28 AM
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You see Hound, you have exactly made my point with your response. You talk about all these personnel action as if that is the source and summit of what it takes to run a business when in fact it just scratches the surface. That is but one aspect. It must be really rough trying to figure out what to do with a budget. Try being responsible for trying to create the money to run the budget and then I'll give you some slack. You see Hound, I understand how federal procurement works. Now for the deconstruction of your "vast" business experience using just one of your examples of vast business knowledge.......
How did you pay your rent? Did someone just tell you your portion of the rent for this federal building is $x and you included it in your budget? Well who picked the building you were in? Who looked at all the options, went around with the real estate agent, negotiated the rates, reviewed the lease with the attorney and negotiated with the landlord? Who arranged for the insurance of the contents including first picking a broker who then went out to all the markets and got several quotes, all of which were unique and required analysis? Who oversaw and TI work, including reviewing specs and plans, figuring out how to stay within the TI budget and still get usable space? Who contacted the utilities, set up the phones, computers, cabling? Who decided on the phone system you would use, the provider of phone and broadband service? I could go on and on and on but I think the point I have made is that you don't even know what you don't know. None of this even occurred to you because it was magically done by others before you ever got there.
So all you have really done Hound, as admitted in your own post, is PAID for stuff. So you included the rent someone told you to pay out of your budget. You took $x that someone gave you (you didn't have to earn it yourself) and made it fit with y number of people and $z in expenses. Numbers on a spreadsheet......it must have been exhausting. Big deal! As you can see from just this one example you have overseen, reviewed and not ever really done.
You see Hound, I told you before my wife worked for the federal government for nine years and I got to know the people she worked with very well, including the senior management. I may not know everything you know about it but I know enough to devastate your argument that because you pay a bunch of bills out of a budget someone else gave you and had to deal with some personnel issues that you understand business. You don't know the half of it and don't even know you don't know the half of it.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
MM is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
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Date:
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5/9/2010 4:53:56 PM
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Hound, it's a beautiful weekend, put down the shovel and start, or wait for a topic that won't embarrass you any further.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
No, you wrong.
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Date:
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5/9/2010 5:36:41 PM
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MM, with all due respect to your wife's employement history.
We were in a commercial building not a government building, and while I didn't personally make the choice on the building -- we had actually moved from another commercial building a few years before. Yes, I picked the phone service, the computer service and every other service we paid for. We negotiated our own deal. I also picked and paid for our replacement furniture and negotiated with the building owner when the bathroom leaked water all over the carpeting of one office and got them to replace it. I also dealt with having the same office tested by an independent firm when the people in that office claimed they were being made sick by the mold, and mildew associated with the leak. And that was just the tip of the iceberg. Operationally, we functioned as a complete and distinct organization.
The only thing we didn't have to do was show a profit.
I realize you are extrapolating your assumptions from your wife's experience, but it's not all like that. At least in DoD, the funding for operations has been decentralized. One other agency is entirely reimbursible from Foreign military sales and must operate solely on the money that is made from that.
I'm sorry I don't have the time or the energy to walk you through a complete explanation of each and every phase of our operation. But then, I doubt I could convince you that it isn't like you think it is. In some ways it is very different from business, but it has become a lot more like business than you think. You do realize, that most of the Cabinet Secretaries, and a lot of the lesser politicals, at least in Defense, come from industry; and there is no reason to think that a lot of those practices have been implemented, at least in Defense, in the 10-15 years.
Just by what you've written, I can see that you are sorely behind on how the government is run.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I'm not Embarassed
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Date:
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5/9/2010 5:41:30 PM
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Why should I be? MM is wrong. Flat out wrong.
And I don't have to convince anyone of anything, except maybe convince my flowers to bloom. The beauty of retirement.
I know how the government works or doesn't work and the rest of you just continue to speculate. Spend a year or two or ten working in the government in a senior level position and then maybe we can debate it.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Its not important
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Date:
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5/9/2010 5:51:13 PM
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Hound, the fact that you said what you said at the beginning of this thread proved my point that you don't understand business. I think I proved my point but you disagree so we will have to agree to disagree. I would have to say your experience in the federal government seems like no other. What are the odds that of all the federal government agencies and the millions of employees that we are lucky enough to have the one that ran just like a business. Gosh, what are the odds????!?!?!
I will repeat myself, having someone give you a budget and the money to spend is a far cry from being in business. You can disagree all day but I and others in business know the difference.....
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
I'm not Embarassed
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Date:
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5/9/2010 9:47:39 PM
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Hound, my point is that after you spend a year, or two, or ten driving revenue, riding herd on expenses, adding staff only to comply with ADA and FMLA, hiring the right people vs. selecting from a list of "qualified" civil servants, working within dictates of various (local, state, and central)governmental regs, paying the bank, repaying your second mortgage, rebuilding the 401 and IRA's you emptied to acquire your business, and, after paying for the mandated services and sharing the wealth, bringing home a little coin at the end of the day, will most business owners tip their cap to your MBA. Until then, you thoughts are merely theory, not grounded in practice. You’re trivializing the reporting burden, followed by the flip to the meat and 3, and restaurant location was proof of deeply flawed understanding. Most restaurants are small business; most small businesses however are not restaurants. I pay professionals to assist me with my business, and business development. These folks are educated, licensed, have a proven track record, and are accountable to me. This is in direct contrast to your thought that we should support the expanded reporting burden as it may add value to the business owner.
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
One sentence says it all
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Date:
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5/10/2010 10:45:19 AM
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"The only thing we didn't have to do was show a profit."
AS has already been posted, it is vastly different "making a budget" and actually have to MAKE a budget. I worked a for an agency that worked on state funding. September was always shopping month becuase we HAD to spend our budget, or it could be cut the next year. A small business owner who ends up with extra money at the end of the year thanks God for the little profit he/she was able to make. They don't go out and blow it on frivilous expenditures just to make sure the bank is empty on Ocotber 1.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
One sentence says it all
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Date:
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5/10/2010 11:15:20 AM
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That is definitely a flaw in the Government way...being penalized for frugality rather than rewarded. Unfortunately the philosophy on the part of the budget gurus is that if you didn't spend it you didn't need it, and thus since you can't properly estimate your needs you will be cut the next year.
But changing that philosophy is about as likely to happen as electing a decent Congress.
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