| Name: |
TBird
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/22/2009 2:42:36 PM
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A Friend just called and asked my opinion about HR45. Never heard of it. GOOGLED it and it seems real. Anyone know about it.
Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009. HR45
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I heard about this earlier in the year. I understand that all ammunition will be encoded and on the shelves by June. Any and all guns will be required to be registered. If not registered it is an automatic felony charge.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/22/2009 9:23:02 PM
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License, registration, photo, thumbprint, pass a "written test". Any handgun and any semiauto capable of accepting a detachable magazine will be regulated. Anyone under the age of 18 cannot have access to firearm affected. Step one.
History shows us that slaves were allowed to have how many firearms?
URL: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h45ih.txt.pdf
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/22/2009 10:42:11 PM
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I personally don't think having to register guns is a bad idea. I support people's right to have guns, but I don't think a little control is a bad idea. In fact, I think there should be a little more control since I don't want mental patients or persons with a mental health issue being able to buy guns.
Yeah, I know that a lot of people think this is only the first step to keeping guns out of the hands of citizens; but until I see actual movement in that area, I have no problem with registering my guns.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 6:29:26 AM
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If you have "have not seen movement in that area" I assume your eyes were closed post Katrina?
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 7:17:37 AM
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There are none so blind as those that will not see!!
In hounds world "guvment good, people bad."
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 7:52:19 AM
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Only a few problems here:
1. Mental health records are protected under Federal regs – look up HIPAA. That and other privacy laws would have to be scrapped (about like that dreaded “Patriot Act, eh dems).
2. Read the history books – with guns - registration is step one, banning is step two, confiscation is step three. As far as waiting, come on Hound – when you see movement in that area, the movement you see will be the Turkish or some other UN “peacekeeping force” here to prevent crimes.
3. When you buy a firearm from an FFL dealer you attest on form http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/index.htm that you are not “mentally defective” and if you lie – it is a felony.
4. Murder, assault, felon in possession of any gun – all illegal already. The only people who would be impacted are those who abide by the law. Subjects and slaves are not permitted to have guns, citizens are – which would you prefer to be?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:02:28 AM
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Say what you will, I still don't see anything wrong with registration of guns.
Where exactly in US history have guns been registered and then banned?
And I must have had my eyes closed, because I didn't see any new legislation on gun control after Katina.
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| Name: |
mbk
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:05:48 AM
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Perhaps obtaining an abortion or artificial insemination should be so difficult. How many deaths or octuplets would that prevent?
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| Name: |
mbk
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:16:18 AM
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And several thousand NEW EMPLOYEES for the AG's office to enforce and monitor this program - applications, renewals, change of address notices, etc.. The $25 license fee will not start to cover the cost to do this. Will this require new offices and administrative space in th Federal Courts around the country? Another huge inefficient federal bureaucracy that takes away state rights and individual liberties. And, I don't own a gun.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:20:43 AM
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In a perfect world, with a perfect Government you might be right.
But those who might enact this legislation are the same ones who foisted the national shame known as the "stimulus" bill - filled with pork and non-stimulative spending - on us without even reading it.
Summer Lover has an awfully good point when saying "The only people who would be impacted are those who abide by the law."
Do you really think the ones who this bill is purportedly aimed at are going to run down and register their weapons? Your eyes may not be totally closed, but close to it.
So lets look at one possible scenario. Law abiding citizens register their guns. Guns are then banned and all law abiding citizens dutifully turn theirs in. The underground, whose weapons are not registered and would not be turned in, then know that only the police can prevent them from taking, at will, whatever they want - be it property or lives - with NO resistance from law abiding citizens.
Unless I am terribly mistaken, it is not the law abiding citizens that this bill will affect that are the problem. So why would we punish the innocent?
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:21:01 AM
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And you are getting this information about thousands of new jobs from what source?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:28:43 AM
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I hear your argument but I'm not buying it. I agree with your premise that criminals will not register their guns. But, what about those who perpetuate gun violence that aren't criminals? what about the student at VA Tech who bought a gun and decided to kill people?
It's like saying some people will never obey the speed limit, so we shouldn't bother regulating speeds on the roadways because the only people who will obey are law abiding citizens.
I suspect that there may be implications for law enforcement here rather than restricting individual rights (which were upheld by the Supreme Court).
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 8:50:04 AM
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Did he buy a gun and decide to kill some people or decide to kill some people and buy a gun? In any case taking guns away from law abiding citizens wouldn't keep a wacko from buying one on the black market - which will flourish, should this thing pass.
Regardless, the purpose of the second amendment was to allow the citizenry to keep the Government in check. This bill would be a step in a direction that could allow the Government to essentially neutralize the second amendment.
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| Name: |
mbk
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 9:23:03 AM
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History and common sense. Any new program requires monitoring and enforcement; how else will the Attorney General do this? And, don't say the state/local authorities or the ATF/Federal Marshall service because they are pretty busy now.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 9:31:49 AM
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You missed the point Hound.. there was no legistation during Katrina, the New Orleans cops simply confisticated the guns of residents.. Were you snoozing during the uproar in the aftermath??
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| Name: |
mbk
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 10:00:29 AM
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Thound, this may be hypercritical but your statement "It's like saying some people will never obey the speed limit, so we shouldn't bother regulating speeds . . ." is not a good example. The federal government does not regulate speed limits. State and municipal governments establish speed limits within their respective jurisdictions. Yes, the federal government withholds federal funding if states do not establish "acceptable speed limits on Interstate Highways" but they do not regulate speeds per se. This sounds like the current system to regulate gun ownership - states establish regulations within federal guidelines.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 10:05:23 AM
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We live in the greatest country in the world, but the arrogance of “it has never happened and will never happen here” is exactly why these Draconian laws WILL be passed. There is far more history than what has happened here. We should all learn from the past, but we won’t.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 11:13:57 AM
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He bought a gun from a legitimate gun dealer, not on the black market. I don't know whether he bought the gun and decided to kill or decided to kill and bought the gun. People are dead, either way. And I'm for anything that would slow the process of obtaining a firearm.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 11:15:39 AM
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And I'd say that they did it with pretty good reason. There was chaos after Katrina. Why make law enforcement's job harder?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 11:18:03 AM
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Oh, so you are operating on an assumption of thousands of new jobs, not anything factual. You know, this is how misinformation gets started. It's one thing to debate facts, it's another to debate someone's assumptions based on their perceptions.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 11:36:46 AM
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So you are in favor of making the citizens of this country 100% reliant on law enforcement personnel to assure their safety? You do realize that the courts have ruled that law enforcement has a duty to protect “the people” , as in a collective group, not the individual? I refuse to become a disarmed victim, while the D.C. elitists have their own protection force.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
And how would registration....
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Date:
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2/23/2009 12:52:28 PM
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..... have stopped that? It wouldn't. The ONLY thing registration does is give the guvment a list of where to find them when they decide things are to dangerous for you to have them. And if you think that would have stooped and insane freak like him, then you are delusional.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 12:54:03 PM
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Yes there was chaos being perpetrated by CRIMINALS. The very reason the citizenry needed to be armed, to protect themselves when the guvment was unable.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 12:57:06 PM
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Name any new federal program that DIDN'T come with thousands of new jobs. Even Homeland Sercurity which was supposed to just put several agencies under more streamined control created thousands. Thats why you dems love them. They create nice cushy guvment (read UNION) jobs.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 4:39:40 PM
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Sometimes I'm amazed by liberal thought processes... 'the only solution to the Katrina disaster was government?' To extract their butts, feed, cloth and build them comfy lives?? FEMA did a helluva job right?? I still drive thru Arkansas and see acre after acre of never used FEMA trailers, paid for by my tax dollar for Katrina, rotting in weather.. A year after Katrina, we spent the night at the ATL Ramada to catch a flight the next day.. Who did we wait behind for breakfast?? You guessed it, Katrina refugees.. (And you want to rely on the federal government for health care?? Good grief...) Finally, you want the government to confisticate my weapons during times of civil disorder? Trust me on this, if looters are kicking down my front door, for whatever reason, I ain't calling 911.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 4:50:35 PM
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You MUST call 911. If the same happens to me - and I pray it does not - I will promtly call 911.... after my last reload.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Anyone heard about HR45
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Date:
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2/23/2009 4:55:33 PM
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Valid point 'summer,' I just ain't dialing it first..
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And how would registration....
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Date:
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2/23/2009 5:19:51 PM
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According to what I read here, there will be some sort of written test required and I assume that will slow down the process and maybe put in some back ground checks.
Swimmer, you need to move to West. You seem to think that every time the government imposes any kinda of restriction, then they are out to get you. Maybe you could join some kind of survivalist cult and declare your property a government free state.
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government does NOT equal union. I was a career fed and I never belonged to a union. They are there, but they have no power and no one belongs to them, except maybe Air Traffic Controllers.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Reactionary
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Date:
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2/23/2009 5:25:18 PM
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I've never seen such a bunch of reactionaries. They are talking about registering your gun and you have taken it to the nth degree with people taking away your guns. No one is taking your guns because frankly, the NRA lobby will see that they don't.
Y'all are just too much.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Reactionary
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Date:
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2/23/2009 6:38:20 PM
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Hope it warms up, painting to do and I have spent tooo much time on this thread... However, comma... I also spent most of my adult life working for the federal govertment, US military.. I took an oath of Office to.. "support and defend the Constitution of the United States..." Something was in there about the right to bear arms, as I recall.. H.R45 is beyond anything I signed on to .. Read the bill,, it's online.. all handguns, 10 requirements, mandates intrusive background checks and totally bans an available weapon for self protection in your home if you have a teenager.. Let Hound figure out how many new federal positions will be needed to do this.. Process applicatioons, screen bad guys, issue permits and enforce compliance?? The precedence for government seizure of weapons of self defense of lawful owners is there and recent.. just when it was needed most.. post Katrina..
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| Name: |
Hadenuff
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| Subject: |
Sorry
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Date:
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2/23/2009 6:45:01 PM
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If you and I were to ever meet, we would not like each other. I have read your posts for several months now and can not agree with much you have to offer.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Reactionary
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Date:
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2/23/2009 6:48:47 PM
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Too much? It is "people like us" who created this country. The problem with your Utopia is that it cannot exist with an armed populace, so call me what you will - I will resist this type of change. And to think that the NRA or any other group can prevent the Government from doing as they please? We have a President who shows contempt for the American Flag and the Star Spangled Banner (before you ask - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU9iCANi02o), but we should expect him to honor the Constitution?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Reactionary
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Date:
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2/23/2009 6:55:53 PM
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What makes you so confident that they WON'T take the next step if they success with this one? The same confidence that Obama's "change" would be good?
It is all about precedent. If this bill were to succeed, then it becomes the baseline. The gun control element would not be satisfied, but rather think of this as a step in the journey toward making firearms illegal and, emboldened by that success, push even harder for more restrictions. If you can't see that, then maybe I need to be in your Pollyanna world.
And no, I am not reactionary. According to the wiki dictionary, reactionary is "such a person; unthinkingly opposed to change; urging a return to a previous state; very conservative". Conservative, yes. Wanting to go back to the way it was? No just want to keep the way it is. Unthinkingly, no. I am not opposed to change just because it is change. I am opposed to change that threatens to change the character of this country.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Look on the Bright Side
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Date:
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2/23/2009 10:11:16 PM
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And that's just fine, because I have no particular need to be liked by someone like you.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Reactionary
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Date:
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2/23/2009 10:18:19 PM
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Sorry, it is reactionary when someone finds any change to be threatening and cannot imagine any possible good that can come out of it.
I have found that there is usually a continuum that extends between two points and where these things settle is usually somewhere far short of the worst possible outcome. This is a bill, has not yet been passed -- there'll be plenty of time to panic later.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
And how would registration....
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Date:
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2/24/2009 8:50:43 AM
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Written test eh? You can pick any subject you like and a couple of us idiot rednecks could put together a test that no one person could pass. With regards to guns – how about drawing a chart with range/trajectory/velocity/energy information for any “readily available” cartridge. Sorry, you failed – give ‘em up – we are trying to make the country a safer place by requiring you know what can potentially happen when you squeeze the trigger. As far as Swimmer being in the wrong place…. It sounds like you are the one who would be much more comfortable in Commiefornia, where the beautiful people live, and the Government is responsible for all that exists.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
More than you think
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Date:
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2/24/2009 9:15:11 AM
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Hound, you always look at the world from your own limited experience and extrapolate it onto everything else. For example, when you talk about government, you seem to only think of the federal government in DC. The fact is the majority of government workers work for state and local governments. Here are a few interesting facts.
Union membership in government is 36.8% versus 7% in the private sector.
In local government union membership is over 42%. The highest private sector industries are only 22%.
Union membership grew by 428,000 members in 2008 although the majority of those were in government jobs.
Union growth in government is growing at an exponential rate and government workers are five times more likely to be represented by a union than private sector workers.
So is it unfair to say government = union? Maybe right now but it is quickly headed that way given these trends. By the way, all these facts come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I love to do your research for you. :-)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
More than you think
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Date:
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2/24/2009 10:01:58 AM
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I thought we were talking about the FEDERAL government, since the comment had to do with the AG hiring thousands of new government employees to administer a new program.
I'll reserve my comments on state and local government. If they are unionized, well, that explains a lot.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Dang you MM
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Date:
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2/24/2009 12:24:38 PM
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There you go with relevant FACTS again. Don't you know by now that results don't matter, only intentions!! Well that and how good it makes you feel while you are trying...lol.
I refuse to do her research, it is much more fun to use her ignorance against her....lol.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I just can't help myself
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Date:
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2/24/2009 1:05:52 PM
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At times Hound does respond well to facts and logic. Where she really struggles is when it comes to Bush. It is a sad fact that a good many people made a very bad voting decision based on their hatred of Bush and the mistaken notion that they are punishing him by voting for BO over McCain. Sadly, they and the rest of us were the ones that are being punished. Former President Bush should never have been the main driver for voting BO in these difficult times but it was a great political strategy. Keep in mind, the incompetence of FDR and his administration lengthened the depression by many years but it was a good political strategy to stay in power (ala, elected three times). I do think things were so bad that if it weren't for the specter of WWII FDR would have certainly lost to Wilkie.
I would say that I am not sure McCain would have been significantly better but he certainly would have been incrementally better and I think he would have nominated a much more competent administration than we have seen with BO. The only downside is we would not have collected the hundreds of thousands of back taxes from the cheats nominated to various political positions.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Fed union rep is 22%
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Date:
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2/24/2009 1:14:34 PM
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This is still 3 times higher than the overall union representation and is growing rapidly. The unions have wisely targeted federal, state and local employees and are having great success, especially with the budget problems. They also see the logic in having government employees that implement and enforce laws to be unionized. Next step is unionized government employees forcing unions on the private sector. Very smart.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Fed union rep is 22%
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Date:
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2/24/2009 4:20:51 PM
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Have it your way.
I'm not sure what good Unions are going to do for Federal Employees since they cannot strike. There have always been Unions, NAFE for example, but no one pays them much attention. Mostly they are populated by people who are too dumb to know better.
Did you know, for example, that if your activity is represented by a bargaining unit that they have to represent you whether you pay dues or not? Problem is that most of the Union Officials you wouldn't want representing you.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Its not my way, its a fact
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Date:
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2/24/2009 5:03:06 PM
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I am not trying to have it my way, I am just pointing out the facts. By the way, that doesn't include the postal service which is mostly union. As I said in my post, union membership increases anywhere mean more money for the unions to run their business. It is also very savvy to have government employees being in a union when it comes to supporting union goals and objectives. A strike is only a tool used by unions to try and force the private sector to pay higher wages or offer more generous benefits. It is obviously not a tool in the toolbox for government workers on the federal side but it is on the state and local level.
As I said before, I don't agree that government = union but it does seem to be heading that way doesn't it? I assume you trust the BLS, after all it is a government agency.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Reactionary
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Date:
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2/24/2009 6:55:53 PM
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So where did you get your definition of reactionary? Sorry if reason and logic, along with anecdotal evidence (see the story of the Englishman somewhere else on the forum) interfere with your utopian view of the world.
Panic does not describe the mood of the forum, or my current state of mind. Diligence in steadfastly defending our/my constitutional rights does.
When I bought my AR-15 I made a statement in the gun shop that I didn't want it, but was concerned that I might need it. Is that reactionary? Can you possibly fathom the level of concern that I feel for what is going on in this country?????
So when someone suggests stupid change we are reactionary if we oppose same stupid change? YGTBSM.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Your Weapon
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Date:
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2/25/2009 8:36:50 AM
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I don't see anything wrong with you buying a weapon for the protection of family and home. I don't think that is reactionary, I think that is smart.
What I find reactionary is the level of paranoia that accompanies a proposed bill to require people to register their weapons.
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| Name: |
Jim Dandy
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| Subject: |
Your Weapon
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Date:
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2/25/2009 10:59:57 AM
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It's hardly paranoia to acknowledge the stated goal of the left to ban all guns. This bill is one step in that process. Few political agendas which are this controversial are implemented in one action. If we wait until the last step, its too late.
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| Name: |
4PAR
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| Subject: |
Your Weapon
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Date:
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2/25/2009 1:15:01 PM
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I have no problem with registering my weapons but it still gets back to the point that it will only effect the law abiding citizens. The dude that will rob the next 7 Eleven or do the next drive by most likely would not have his weapon registered.
I could be fooled but I believe if it ever really came down to a vote there would be enough of the left wingers that actually own guns that true gun control would never pass. I'm sure there are some of them that have never touched a pistol or shotgun but I would be willing to bet that plenty of them have weapons and go hunting with their buddies.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Your Weapon
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Date:
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2/25/2009 3:35:55 PM
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So what are you actually doing about it?
I don't know that gun control is necessarily an agenda of the far left exclusively. A lot of people are in favor of gun control, particularly in metropolitan areas where drug dealers and gangs are using weapons on each other and in the execution of crimes. The police in metro areas regularly run gun turn in amnesty and gun buys.
I think here it is more about people wanting to preserve their right to hunt and also to protect their property since some of the areas around the lake are rural (like where I live).
But, you know there are some people out there that have fully automatic weapons that are not appropriate for hunting or even reasonable for personal/property protection. Some people just don't have good sense around weapons. And I'd like to think they'd maybe make it a little tougher for people like that to get weapons.
Not a big deal for me. I have no problem registering my weapons.
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| Name: |
Jim Dandy
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| Subject: |
Your Weapon
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Date:
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2/25/2009 5:16:32 PM
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"So what are you actually doing about it?"
I oppose HR45 and have let my legislators know.
"I don't know that gun control is necessarily an agenda of the far left exclusively."
Contact Your Speaker of the House and see what her position is for confirmation.
"A lot of people are in favor of gun control, particularly in metropolitan areas where drug dealers and gangs are using weapons on each other and in the execution of crimes. The police in metro areas regularly run gun turn in amnesty and gun buys."
Gun control/regulation does nothing in this situation. Don't think dealers and gangs are the ones who turn in or sell their guns to the cops. I rather doubt that these folks will register their guns.
"But, you know there are some people out there that have fully automatic weapons that are not appropriate for hunting or even reasonable for personal/property protection. Some people just don't have good sense around weapons. And I'd like to think they'd maybe make it a little tougher for people like that to get weapons."
Fully automatic weapons are already illegal - have been for years. Registration will not remove these weapons from circulation and would have no bearing on a persons decision to buy one - they have to be purchased illegally anyway.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
The Real Purpose of HR45
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Date:
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2/25/2009 5:45:46 PM
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is to eventually "Get the Guns".
Step #1- Find them all thru mandatory Registration
(except the illegal ones)
Step #2- Confiscate them later thru an amendment to
the same law.
If I were a determined Gun-Hater, that's the way I would slide it in.
If it gets out of committee and actually gets to the floor for debate, I expect some very loud voices to weigh in, including NRA and others. The media will have fun with it big time.
Can it actually be enacted into law? In the current political environment? Who knows? I'm still in shock from November.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You Obviously have all the
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Date:
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2/25/2009 8:50:05 PM
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answers.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Your Weapon
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Date:
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2/26/2009 9:07:01 AM
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If this mess is about preventing crime - why bring up automatic weapons? How many legally owned machine guns have been used in crimes since 1965? Just because you do not hunt with them, does not mean that they should not be allowed - they are still legal to own and shoot with the proper documents and license. Same arguement could be made for cars that are capable of exceeding speed limits without the owner having a track license - let's ban them too - put them in the garage next to those banned assault boats.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
The Real Purpose of HR45
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Date:
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2/26/2009 9:30:05 AM
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You are correct. By going a step at a time, you only make a small group of people mad at a time, and of course "if it doesn't affect me - I don't care." Start with the mean looking black guns, then go to the autoloaders that work exactly the same way, but do not look as "aggresive". Then, since a "good hunter" should only need one shot - let's ban the repeaters, and before long we end up with laws like Commiefornia where you are not permitted to have a 45/410 barrel for a single shot hunting handgun? Hey, if it does not affect me - it is OK to ban them.
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