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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Christopher Dorner - Hero to the Left
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Date:
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2/11/2013 11:24:23 AM
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I have been watching with a mixture of disgust and discouragement as the left forms fan clubs and roots this piece of human garbage on. Not sure how many people realize that he called the father of the girl he shot along with her fiance to gloat about it and actually told the father how easy it was to shoot his daughter. But hey, he likes Obama, Piers Morgan and other leftists so what's the murder of a few innocent people anyway?!?!?
If anyone wonders why we are in the mess we are in all you have to do is look at the culture and our education system. It is truly a culture of death on the left to cheer on someone like Christopher Dorner. These people are the OWS crowd, the protesters in Seattle, the Obama lovers like Bill Ayers, et al, the anarchists, the New Black Panthers, etc. All the fellow travelers on the left should be disgraced by this adoration for a cold blooded murderer. The question is, are they? I am not so sure........
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Christopher Dorner - Hero to the Left
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Date:
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2/11/2013 2:42:34 PM
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C'mon, there is no rational way to assign this guy to a political ideology and then hold him up as an example of what's wrong with a liberal political agenda. He's no hero to me. Deranged & angry, mentally unstable and on a vendetta to retaliate against his "enemies" is what is going on here... he's not campaigning for social change. The most you could say here is that mental illness is pretty irrespective of politics, and that our culture is really brimming with both angry people AND guns.
My guess is that this guy thinks he is starring in his own Rambo movie. It's a delusion, and ultimately he will "commit suicide by cop".
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
Christopher Dorner - Hero to the Left
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Date:
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2/11/2013 3:34:06 PM
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You are right about the movie thing - "we" just want to be in the news these days... I am just old-fashioned, I would rather be rich and unknown... Now that they found his vehicle, maybe the local constabulary will stop shooting every blue Nissan truck they see.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Did you read his manifesto?
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Date:
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2/11/2013 4:16:24 PM (updated 2/11/2013 4:19:09 PM)
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It is a diatribe of leftist thought and he specifically calls out his support for Obama, Piers Morgan, etc. Read it and you will see he is ideologically a leftist. And it doesn't take long to search the internet and find all sorts of leftists egging him on and cheering his murder of a police officer and asking him to do more.
Am glad you are not one of those leftists but when you read his manifesto it is clear where his politics lie. You may not like it but join the crowd. Every time some wacko goes on a killing spree the govt media jumps into overdrive to try to attach them to the right wing.....then when the truth comes out the story simply goes away but the damage was done and their mission of misinforming low information Americans is accomplished. But the fact is that the majority of these crimes were committed by people with leftist political beliefs. If you want to claim mental illness then I would have to say that liberals must suffer from dangerous mental illnesses more often than conservatives, which factually speaking is the obviously the case.
Unfortunately for the govt media, in this case the guy preempted their lies with the truth that he is a liberal. If it had been a right wing manifesto it would have been on the front page of every newspaper and leading the news stories for weeks on end. That's a fact.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Did you read his manifesto?
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Date:
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2/12/2013 9:38:28 AM
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I read only a few excerpts from his writings, which apparently he did a lot of. My impression is that he feels he was unjustly fired from LAPD and then brooded on it for years... writing recently that this has ruined his life and all opportunities for happiness & success in life. It's what they call a Narcissistic Wound, and some people just can't get over them. He couldn't handle the rejection & humiliation of being fired, obsessed about it and then turned his anger toward a kill list. But he also put a lot of time into making himself as visible as possible when he finally went off, sending messages to public media figures that included lots of dramatic proclamations such as souvenir coins with bullet holes in them. He's deluded, determined to become a person of some importance and stature one way or another. He's a figment of his own imagination as they say.
Seeing a guy like this thru the lens of political affiliation is completely misleading. It's not about being conservative or liberal, he could have just as easily been either. The fellow in south Alabama who took the 6 yr old hostage last week also had 'grievances' against the govt, but didn't have the sophistication to elevate himself in the public media in the same way. Maybe he just wasn't as narcissistic, maybe the ex-cop in California is a bit manic now as well as paranoid.
But nobody should try to understand this guy thru the prism of politics. Trying to do that over-simplifies the behavior, and misses the important pieces of the story. He wants to be seen as larger than life, bravely delivering justice to his enemies, fearless in the face of overwhelming odds against him. He has intentionally arranged a huge drama designed to direct attention back to himself.
He's the dangerous kind of crazy, not a political activist.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Did you read his manifesto?
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Date:
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2/12/2013 11:01:18 AM
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Oh I agree with you that we should not do that but what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Unless and until the left and the govt media....I repeat myself...... stops lying about conservatives and violence I am going to take every opportunity to correct the record.
The fact is the guy is a committed liberal that loves Obama. He is deranged and has wantonly killed innocent people. He is in a long line of left wing deranged killers and their ideology and mental instability are the primary common threads. I know it makes you uncomfortable but that is the truth of the matter. Were you to ask a low information voter about violence from the left and the right they would surely say it is mostly from the right even though it is almost exclusively from the left. Until they realize the truth we need to keep speaking the truth.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Tell me MM
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Date:
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2/12/2013 2:10:10 PM
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Where would you place Timothy McVeigh on the political spectrum?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Glad to....
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Date:
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2/12/2013 3:17:02 PM
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He was a neo-Nazi/survivalist and not a conservative if that's what you are implying. And recall one of the first things the Nazi's did was implement a Genetic Health Court as a result of laws they passed in 1933. Here is a quote from CNN made by McVeigh: "Maybe we have to combine ideologies to achieve the perfect utopian government. Remember, government-sponsored health care was a communist idea. Should only the rich be allowed to live longer? Does that say that because a person is poor he is a lesser human being and doesn't deserve to live as long, because (?) he doesn't wear a tie to work?" Not exactly the musings of a fiscal conservative that believes in limited government and personal responsibility. He was also very fixated on the government killings at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Another quote more consistent with the beliefs of the left than conservatives that he made on 60 Minutes, ""What are we doing with the death penalty? It appears (government agencies) use violence as an option all the time," Again, not exactly what the media told you was it? McVeigh was a complex person no doubt but he was no conservative even though he was a strong believer in the 2nd Amendment, but then so are a great many liberals ala our very own GF.
But here's the thing Archie, if you want to get into a tit for tat on this I will provide a long and sordid list of people with liberal ideological beliefs that have committed murder and mayhem in the last 50 years and Dorner is just the latest in the long string along with the guy that shot Giffords, Ted Kascinzki, the guy at VaTech, Columbine and so on. This is not a road you really want to go down is it?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
The spectrum
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Date:
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2/12/2013 6:43:25 PM
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of politics is open to some interpretation, but every political scientist social scientist and historian I have ever heard and everything I have read puts fascism (including Nazism) on the far right (conservative) side of the spectrum with anarchy on the opposite extreme. Some like to use a circle to describe political right -left divergence so that if you go far enough right you eventually meet the left coming the other way. That's BS!
I assume you will agree Tim McVeigh was not a mainstream Democrat!
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
the influence of political beliefs on violence
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Date:
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2/12/2013 9:58:11 PM
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Just wanted to post a link to an article about violence in
the US studied by categories like left-
or right-wing, so called “single issue”
terrorists acts and the “lone wolf” killers…. for anybody that is
interested.
http://www.cfr.org/terrorist-organizations/militant-extremists-united-states/p9236#p7
it’s a bit long-winded, but contains several striking points…
( there’s a detour into how the government defines “violent extremism” and
coordinates domestic terrorism policy).
iMHO, we seemed to have politicized many incidents of
impulsive violence in that since 9/11 … it seems that we are now trying to see
political meaning in any act of crazy violence that makes the headlines. Surely we should all be concerned about increasing
violence, but are we going anywhere by arguing about the political leanings of
people who are simply acting out some revenge fantasy or paranoid delusion? if i really wanted to understand what would
make an individual commit a violent act, but i don’t think i would waste much
time thinking about who they voted for in the last election. Beyond some context, most of the time
whatever ‘political statement’ is made by the shooter is just their
rationalization…. A self-serving narrative designed to justify their behavior,
or just a sound-byte provided by the media.
i think the ‘drivers’ of violent behavior are more likely to be closer
to home than that… like having a really poor grip on reality or a fragile
personality that can’t take failure/rejection/humiliation. in
the end, i’d bet that the individual ‘mental world’ of violent people is
remarkably similar… no matter what their political beliefs. Violence is violence. And it really doesn’t’ matter to me what
kind of politics a person has, when they become dangerous they are apolitical.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I don't think so
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Date:
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2/12/2013 10:25:44 PM
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National Socialist and conservative are mutually exclusive terms. I know many on the left would love to make this comparison but the shoe doesn't fit. In fact, there is a much better comparison with big government thinking of liberals than with a socially and fiscally conservative belief system. Nazi's believed in big government control, abortion, euthanasia and they were anti-religion. These are all attributes of the modern Democrat party are they not? Probably the biggest difference is that the Nazis were willing to use force to expand their power and influence which is more in line with communists. But they are in no way comparable to fiscal and social conservatives.
As for McVeigh, I would agree he would not identify himself as a Democrat because of his distrust of government and his belief in the 2nd amendment. But no one distrusts government more than left wing nuts and anarchists on the far left. That is where I would put him. He is out there with the likes of Bill Ayers.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
You need to look at the ideology of the CFR
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Date:
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2/13/2013 8:44:24 AM
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CFR is an extreme left wing organization and this article is a piece of absolute garbage. Let me give you a list right from their website as to who they think represents "nonpartisan" thinking: "CFR members, including Brian Williams, Fareed Zakaria, Angelina Jolie, Chuck Hagel, and Erin Burnett, explain why the Council on Foreign Relations is an indispensable resource in a complex world.."
I know, you probably think all these people are just your middle of the road moderates when in fact they are far left wing and are ideologues. And what a joke it is that they consider these people reliable sources on foreign affairs. Let's see, we have a left wing teleprompter reader masquerading as a journalist, a disgraced plagiarist masquerading as a journalist, an actress who does not even appear to have a high school education, a Jew hating former politician and another left wing CNN journalist and these represent their best and brightest according to them. It is totally laughable.
And for them to quote the Southern Law Poverty Center is another indicator of their ability to present issues factually. This piece was nearly fact free, especially when it discusses the so-called increase in right wing violence with no evidence of that actually happening. And notice they studiously avoided any discussion of the ideology of the lone wolf mass murderers and for good reason. They are mostly if not entirely either Islamists or leftists.
Copper, garbage in and garbage out.......
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
GIGO!
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Date:
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2/14/2013 8:37:46 AM
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That depends on who is putting the garbage in and, and more importantly, who defines and how you define garbage. Sorry MM, but I decline to grant you the title of "Definer in Chief" when it comes to deciding who is or is not politically biased one way or the other. I'm sure you feel the same about CU_____ and me. PEACE!
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
GIGO!
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Date:
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2/14/2013 9:02:51 AM (updated 2/14/2013 10:19:08 AM)
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I am not claiming to be the arbiter of anything. Are you claiming that all these people listed as prominent members of CFR aren't liberals?!?!? That would be news to them and the rest of the world. I am merely pointing out what is well known and objectively true about the CFR. Do a little research on your own and you will find that they are left wing and almost no one except maybe the guy who included the term non-partisan disputes that.
C'mon Archie, there is nothing wrong with admitting what is obviously and objectively true about this organization. Ask me about CATO and I will tell you they are libertarians. Heritage is conservative. The Heartland Institute is conservative. I have no problem admitting this truth but as usual the left wants to hide. CFR is a well known liberal organization but I suppose if I believed what they believed I too would be ashamed to admit my ideology.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
You need to look at the ideology of the CFR
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Date:
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2/14/2013 12:07:44 PM
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I'd describe CFR as having a pretty objective world view, not liberal ... but international. One thing they don't do is to present everything from the POV of the US and you can count on them to bring into the mix a thoughtful discussion of how other countries perceive the US, or how US policy will play out on the world stage. Admittedly, some of the names associated with CFR are Liberals, but I've also read contributions by Henry Kissinger... hardly considered to be a spokesman for the Left.
Defining the term Liberal in this context gets to an important point: To be liberal means to give a balanced accounting of multiple views of an issue, avoiding cultural bias and prejudice as best possible, being willing to admit shortcomings & failings of our policies, examining and being inclusive of dissenting viewpoints as worthy of consideration. CFR is one of the most thoughtful, balanced & informed sources around for international policy issues these days IMHO.
In that way, I think news media functions best when it is "liberal"...
CFR doesn't usually focus on domestic concerns but when they do, its always informative to see comparisons of how an issue is manifest in different countries, or at different points in history..... Putting complex issues like this in a comparative context expands our understanding of them.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
And that explains all we need to know
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Date:
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2/14/2013 1:22:38 PM
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I suppose you think the NY Times, LA Times, WaPo, CNN et al are all middle of the road as well. Liberals....they believe so much that just isn't so. I make a list of prominent people in CFR that are avowed, recognized liberals and you, being totally impervious to an obvious reality, respond with the above. Copper......you have serious reality issues that need to be addressed. Until you admit you have a problem there is no hope for a cure.
Angelina Jolie and Chuck Hagel unbiased?!?! Brian Williams middle of the road?!?!? It is just too much fantasy for one to bear. Just admit what is so patently, obviously true and if you want to believe what they wrote so be it. But don't insult our intelligence by trying to cast them in a light that simply doesn't exist.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
And that explains all we need to know
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Date:
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2/14/2013 8:06:56 PM
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Easy there, MM. I'm not trying to insult anybody's intelligence. And I don't expect you to ever come to the middle ground. But your level of confidence & complete invalidation of viewpoints other than your own is amazing. We should agree to disagree.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
And that explains all we need to know
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Date:
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2/14/2013 8:18:20 PM
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I like it better the way Uncle Si says it on DD "We will just disagree to disagree"
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Maybe I am not being clear
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Date:
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2/15/2013 1:09:27 PM
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You are asking us to believe that the CFR can be trusted to tell us the source of violence in America and I am telling you that you cannot trust them because they are biased. That is what is insulting our intelligence. I wouldn't expect you to believe wholesale what Heritage says on this issue and I wouldn't insult your intelligence by claiming they are nonpartisan and unbiased (and neither would they). That CFR lies about who they are and you apparently believe them is all the more sad, especially when I have demonstrated that their their supposed best and brightest are all self avowed liberals and many aren't even qualified to opine on these issues.
Here's the deal, we know the govt media lies about who commits violence in this country. We know the govt media hides that violence from low information voters because they are partisan hacks and an extension of the Oblamer administration. We know all these things and they have been documented over and over again. So please spare us the work of left wing groups that also choose to lie in order to advance their political agenda.
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