| Name: |
Mike75
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 3:55:08 PM
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We are thinking of retiring at Lake Martin. Are there any subdivisions on Lake Martin that have a natural gas supply you could have for heating in the winter rather than using a heat pump. I like to be warm in the winter. Thanks. Yes, I realize it's an electric power company lake $$$$.
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 4:27:42 PM
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I don't know of any, but there may be some in Alex City. I once had the same opinion as you after having a heat pump in Charleston that seemed like it took forever to warm the house, but I have been converted. Now, I love my heat pump. It is oversized for the house and has no problem keeping the house as warm or as cool as I want it. It heats very quickly and I do not have axillary heat coils. My parents just built a house on the lake, and they slightly oversized their heat pump and used foam insulation in the house. Their house is very cozy and warm. You also have the option of propane, and I think they make heat pumps with propane axillary heat if you wanted to go that route. If done right, I think you would be very happy with a heat pump.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 4:45:45 PM
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I had a heat pump when I lived in VA and felt the same as you. But, we have one here and have found no problem in heating the house. I think they were designed for this climate, and have probably become more efficient over the years.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Only Negative
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Date:
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7/12/2010 7:01:05 PM
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Your bill is a function of natural gas supplies and they can fluctuate. Electric prices have been more stable. Heat pumps become inefficient at lower temperatures. I think all HP units have auxilary strips. You could check into a dual fuel heat pump that would cover all the bases....
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| Name: |
Mike75
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 7:28:38 PM
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We had a heat pump when we lived in Dothan, AL but perhaps the sizing of the pump and better insulation would be the answer.
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 7:39:35 PM
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You are correct. The climate in Charleston was considerably more mild than here, and I wasn't at all happy with my unit there (that was in the mid 80's). I also believe heat pump technology is much better now.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 7:42:38 PM
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Had to replace my HP several years ago. Tried to go with a much larger unit, but the local HP dealer said it was a waste, because without a similar outsizing of ductwork (ripout/replace) it would not help at all.
Since, I have replaced the roof with a metal roof, and had it really well insulated. What a difference! My HP pre-insulation ran constantly and could not hold a comfortable temp. Post-insulation, the HP runs about half as much and causes my wife to grab her Scrunchee for cover during the heat of day.
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
[Message deleted by author]
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Date:
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7/12/2010 8:00:01 PM (updated 7/13/2010 9:05:47 AM)
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| Name: |
muddauber
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/12/2010 9:46:12 PM
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Still Waters has natural gas, though not all parts have it available.
Email if interested in more info.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Turning down Winter temps
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Date:
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7/12/2010 10:11:17 PM
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With a very well insulated tight house if you turn it down too much you might find a little mildew on everything when you return.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Bigger ain't necessarily better....
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Date:
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7/12/2010 10:19:30 PM
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Oversizing is more than an opinion. If you have been undersized to the point your unit can't keep up and you have big fluctuations in temps you are undersized. But oversizing has it's problems too. If you have a unit that is too big you can have moisture problems from not enough moisture being removed during the cycle.It will come on and off too much. Here? I want my AC running enough to get the humidity out.
A qualified HVAC company that knows how to do the heat gain/loss calculations is who you want to install your HVAC....not necessarily sell you a bigger more expensive unit.
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Bigger ain't necessarily better....
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Date:
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7/13/2010 7:34:30 AM
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The key here (and to your other post on turning the heat down in a tight home) is to have a quality dehumidifier.I also recommend this for anyone with a crawl space (along with a good moisture barrier). I have a whole house dehumidifier that can be hooked into the HVAC system. It will remove 130 pints of water per day and is more cost effective than running the ac or heating units when not needed, It is also effective at much lower temperatures than the inexpensive units they sell in many stores. See the www.allergybuyers.com website for options and more information,
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| Name: |
Pontoonfisher
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 7:38:19 AM
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Be careful what some of these posters are telling you. As some before posted oversizing is not always such a good idea. An A/C unit needs to run for a certain amount of time for it to efficiently cool. If you buy an oversized unit that cycles on and off all the time you may actaully use more power than a smaller unit that runs longer and cycles on and off less. Also, your unit must run to pull humidity out of the house. In some cases an oversized unit will not do this b/c it won't run long enough. Someone posted that they have no auxiliary heating on their unit. I don't see how that is possible. Once the outside temp gets around 35 degrees it can no longer pull heat out of the outside air to heat your house. Weather a unit is large or small it can't pull heat out of the air. Check all this with a heating and AC professional. Be careful who you deal with. There are alot of idiots out there installing heating and air units.
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 7:55:00 AM
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I agree. Talk to someone who knows and understands the physics behind a system and can apply them to your situation and needs rather than using standard sizing charts without regard to the many variables in insulation, home quality, crawl space, exposure, ground moisture, mold prevention, usage habits, budget, and personal comfort tolerances.
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 8:14:07 AM (updated 7/13/2010 8:29:37 AM)
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to clarify, when I say upsize I don't mean put in a 4 ton unit instead of a 2. You are correct that such a jump would cause problems. In my case, each unit is about 1/2 ton larger than what conventional charts would recommend and includes a separate whole house dehumidification system. I also have large blower units. Initial cost is more expensive for the equipment, but it is also more comfortable. As far as heat strips, I'm surprised too that I haven't had a problem. I had the dehumidifier system installed and a few modifications done, but the rest of the system came with the home. When the units need replaced, I will have strips or dual fuel as a backup and would not recommend installing a system without a backup.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Geothermal systems
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Date:
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7/13/2010 9:00:53 AM
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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the water/heat exchange systems that are available. With a SEER rating of up to 28 advertised and the lake available these systems seem to offer an answer for winter and summer.
Sure wish someone offered an add/on attachment that would allow conversion of an air heat pump to a water/heat exchanger system without having to replace the entire system.
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| Name: |
Summer Place
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 10:20:33 AM
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If you are planning on retireing to the lake, and want the most cost efficient system that address all of your concerns, then hands down it would be a Geothermal system. I had a WaterFurnance system installed about four years ago, and it is the best choice I have ever made. Your power bill for heating, and cooling will just about be cut in half. During the summer I turn off my hot water tank and the geothermal system supplies all our hot water needs. The systems control of the humity is the best part. The only draw back is the up front cost. It will cost about double a standard heat pump, but with all the government credits, and the savings in power bills it is more than worth it (at least to me).
In the winter when the temp is about 30 outside the water temp is about 55, all your system has to produce is 17 degrees vs 42 degrees for a standard heat pump. The same is true for the summer but reversed. My neighbor uses propane, and his gas bill was over $400 a month in the winter vs my $96. He pulled out his system and put in a geothermal.
Do not take my evaluation, do your own as I did. I spent months researching geothermal systems before pulling the trigger. Oh, one more big plus.. When you sit outside on your porch or deck you do not hear the AC unit running making all that noise, and now that my neighbor has his new unit installed I can even hear the fish jump and hit the water, after all is that not what it is all about.
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| Name: |
Summer Place
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 10:37:14 AM
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Let me add this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybfVoiN14HE
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 10:45:18 AM
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Good point Summer and Osms. If building or totally replacing this should be a strong contender. We researched when building my dad's home, but he decide to go with a heat pump because of other factors and considerations.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Bigger ain't necessarily better....
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Date:
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7/13/2010 11:25:32 AM
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Cool. never thought of supplementing a/c with a dehumidifier to save $ compressor time. I see the allergy site. I'm allergic to everything... except boats
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| Name: |
Ulysses E. McGill
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| Subject: |
Bigger ain't necessarily better....
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Date:
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7/13/2010 11:58:04 AM
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My wife and kids are allergic to mold and many other things. I learned a bunch on the subject a several years back and some of the cures go against conventional construction techniques.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Geothermal systems
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Date:
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7/13/2010 12:00:10 PM
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Great idea. There's a lot of heat that could be dumped into the lake. I wonder if our old friends at the EPA would allow it? I have seen some literature on systems that exchange with below grade piping. That seems like it would work too but the payback I'll bet is longer than we'll be around.
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| Name: |
lakngulf
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 12:14:43 PM
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Are these systems put in the lake bed? How does APCo like that?
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| Name: |
pcs1900
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 1:25:28 PM
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We replaced our air source heat pumps with a geothermal (water) heat pump 2 years ago. Our electricity bill has dropped by an average of 50% while keeping the house cooler/warmer. Additionally heating the water heater is free in the summer and cheap in the winter. the beauty is that with the air source exchangers replaced with the water source exchangers, the outside noise has been replaced with silence.
With 1,622,000 acre feet of thermal inertia, the impacts of water source heat pump is not measurable. I'll not use air source heat pumps again.
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| Name: |
Kizma Anuice
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 2:21:39 PM
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What size and type of water pump are you using? I your system closed loop or open?
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| Name: |
Summer Place
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 3:40:47 PM
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Most geothermal systems around the lake use a closed loop system. You will usually have two small Grundfos type circulator pumps, one pushing, and the other pulling.
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| Name: |
Summer Place
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/13/2010 3:47:07 PM
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WHY IS A GEOTHERMAL HEAT PUMP BETTER?
Water stores tremendous quantities of heat. In nature, few substances have a higher specific heat (one BTU per pound) than does water, making it an ideal heat storage medium for both natural and man-made phenomena.
Air, on the other hand has a very low specific heat (.018 BTU per cubic foot). There is 3472 times more heat stored in a cubic foot of water (62.5 BTU per degree F) as in a cubic foot of air . In other words it would be necessary to move 3472 cubic feet of air through a heat exchanger in an air-to-air heat pump in order to expose that heat exchanger to the same quantity of heat stored in a cubic foot of water (7 1/2 gallons) that is moved thru a geothermal heat pump.
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This cube represents one cubic foot of water
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This cube represents 3472 cubic feet of air
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Furthermore, Enviroteq geothermal heat pump units have such low resistance to water flow (pressure drop) that about two cubic feet per minute (15 gallons) is the average water flow through an Enviroteq geothermal heat pump utilizing only about 235 watts of energy compared to well over 1000 watts to move nearly 7000 cfm of air through the air-source heat pump.
While these differences are significant, there is more: the heat transfer characteristics of water make it superior to air. Conduction is more rapid, more complete, and more efficient a heat transfer phenomenon than convection. A ground-water heat pump extracting heat from water at freezing is approximately equal in performance to that of an air-source heat pump extracting heat from 60 degree air.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Basic Questions on a Geothermal system??
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Date:
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7/13/2010 5:20:55 PM
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Is the water source usually the same as drinking water? i.e. well/city water??
Changeout of heatpump/air handler required? How about ductwork??
Auxiliary heat strips needed for those 20* nights??
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| Name: |
Kizma Anuice
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| Subject: |
Basic Questions on a Geothermal system??
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Date:
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7/13/2010 5:57:01 PM
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About 4 years ago I bought a package unit 3 ton I think it is a trane from a dude in Miami. It was new and cost about $1200. I hooked it up to an extra valve on my irrigation system that pumps water from the lake. I turns on the pump and opens the valve when it needs to heat or cool. Just connected it to existing duct work and wiring. I discharge the water into what was a dry creek bed that has developed a pool and birds love it.
If the lawn irrigation calls for water, it happens at the same time. I buried a loop about 1500 ft when I built a sea wall, but have not used it yet. I need to figure out what kind of pump to use with the loop.
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| Name: |
BamaDave
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| Subject: |
Basic Questions on a Geothermal system??
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Date:
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7/13/2010 11:25:33 PM
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I've had a WaterFurnace system in my house for 8 years. I have 6890 feet under roof and my power bill runs 350 a month. Payback for me was 5 years. My bill would be twice that with a heat pump system.
In a closed looped system, water and a eco friendly alcohol mixture is used. Yes, you replace everything in the system except for duct work. I have emergency strips and they have come on twice in 8 years.
The thing that sold me on the WaterFurnace brand name is their 10 year parts and labor warranty. Also 100 gallons of almost FREE hot water isn't to bad either. Oh yeah, no noisy unit beside the house to listen to (ALL mechanical equipment is inside. But I stii have to listen to the neighbors.
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| Name: |
pcs1900
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/14/2010 9:54:00 AM
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I am using Water Furnace. It is a closed loop system with a denatured alcohol mixture as an anti-freeze. One of the bonuses of using such a system is that you are not limited to 5 ton units like an air exchange system (single phase power limit) since you just have to have more radiator length in the water and a slight increase pump HP. I had a split unit 5/2 ton that I replaced with 8 ton water exchange (still split as I have a 2 level house). Since I was replacing two units there was some duct work required but the results have been fantastic.
I did a lot of research as well and finally settled on Water Furnace. I am just sorry that I missed the energy tax credit.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/14/2010 4:35:25 PM
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From the little research I have done on-line (I stopped when the price for a 3000 sq.ft. home went from $15K to as high as $30K) it looks like either an open loop system, pumping water thru an exchanger and exhausting the water somewhere, or a closed loop where there is no exhaust water. In either case an exchanger, hundreds of feet of copper lines like giant radiator, must either be buried in your yard or submerged and buried under the lake bed. Clay soils were specifically mentioned as bad news for copper pipe corrosion..
Sounds like a cool idea, and it apparently works, but, man the up front cost sounds tough.
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| Name: |
BamaDave
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/14/2010 5:49:07 PM
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I've never heard of copper being used in a geo system. I have heavy black plastic tubing, around schedule 80. The pipe is buried 4 feet deep to the lake then the pipe and coils sit on the the lake bed. I have 6-400 foot coils plus about 300 feet of pipe from the housefor a total of around 3000 of pipe either in the water or underground.
It's the old adage, pay now or pay later. Later always cost more. For me it was a no brainer. The cost difference was repayed in 5 years and now it's like a 400 check in the mail every month, and staying the most comfortable I've ever been in any home I've owned.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/14/2010 6:09:21 PM
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How deep in the lake are the coils?
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| Name: |
Summer Place
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| Subject: |
Natural Gas Heating rather than Heat Pump
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Date:
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7/14/2010 6:14:50 PM
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It needs to be at least 2 feet below winter level.
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| Name: |
green,ed
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| Subject: |
Hey Mike
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Date:
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7/14/2010 10:45:30 PM
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Sounds to me like you should find a natural gas line and hook to it.In five minutes a house will go from cold to toasty warm.
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