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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
F-22
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Date:
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7/15/2009 8:26:27 AM
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Comments? Congressional Republicans are for it. Obama, McCain, Gates, The Brass and Architect are not. If you are really against pork you must be against pork!
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
F-22
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Date:
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7/15/2009 8:33:58 AM
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I'd rather see the money spent on F-22s than the National Endowment for the Arts, turtle crossings, and the other egregious giveaways in the porkulus package. At least building F-22s means JOBS, and at the same time bolsters our national defense capabilities.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I could care less
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Date:
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7/15/2009 10:57:00 AM
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I am more concerned about the trillions in new debt we are getting with Obama, Reid and Pelosi on outrageous pork and earmarks and private company takeovers, etc., etc. The F22 is a frigging gnat compared to the ruinous spending being contemplated by that socialist troika. Why you care about the F22 and don't seem worried about the other spending is beyond me.
But then again, for most liberals they are not against spending and deficits unless it is for our national defense.
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| Name: |
widgethater
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| Subject: |
I could care less
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Date:
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7/15/2009 12:32:15 PM
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MM, The frigging gnat's project manager lives here on Lake Martin, in StillWaters. He did a great job on a project that is very worthy.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Don't misuderstand me
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Date:
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7/15/2009 1:31:05 PM
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I don't have an opinion on the F22 as I am not an expert in this area and whether this particular aircraft is needed. And I live in Marietta and know it is a great airplane and the impact it will have if it is canceled.
My point was that were are being baited by a liberal to denounce a spending program that will cost nothing compared to the cost of all these stimulus bills, takeover of health, nationalization of car companies, etc. My intent was to point out the total hypocrisy of our beloved liberal poster that he has suddenly found a spending program that we conservatives should join him in denouncing.
In hindsight I should have said I could care less if they choose to spend money on the F22 because I am way more concerned about all the other spending and taxes that are coming.
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The real question is if the AF needs both the F-22 and the Joint Strike Fighter. Both are awesome aircraft with unbelievable capabilities. But, does the AF really need two new fighters and would the money be better spent on UAVs?
My answer to the question is no, they don't need both from a capbailities standpoint. They can't cancel the JSF because of the international commitments. The F-22 way overbudget and has been basically kept alive by Congress to keep jobs in their districts. When last I heard, we weren't selling the F-22 anywhere.
For my money, I'd rather see the money spent on UAVs like Predator, and apparently Gates agrees, but the AF is run by pilots and they don't want to give an inch on manned fighters.
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I don't have a view other than right now it is government spending that is keeping people employed, unlike the wasteful stimulus dollars. "If" it should be terminated, then either it should be far enough in the future to not have further negative impact on the economy, or the dollars should be redirected within the defense department on another program that maintains our military strength.
My fear is that Obama is trading military and defense programs for more social programs and that is beyond dangerous.
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
Archy..........
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Date:
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7/15/2009 3:22:09 PM
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Your understanding of the F-22 is about as good as mine......deep as my dinner plate. The F-22 is supported by more than just Repubs, its components are manufactured in 40 states.........sooooooo do you think it may have bipartisan support?? Naturally it is supported by both Ga US Senators........jobs. Was at the Gainesville Ga Fly-In just this past weeekend and was speaking with a well placed employee at the Marietta plant, and he confirmed the high maintenance cost per hour of flight time and other problems.......but the concern he stated is that the F-35 (the one on the planning board) will never get built because of the Dem propensity to cut military budgets and starve new developments. Like everyone else on this forum, I don't know what the correct thing to do is with this project......but I do have faith in those leaders who stand foresquare FOR protecting our many interests militarily and diplomatically. And I stand against those who would weaken our nation. If, the F-22 is killed and the F-35 is not funded......then he!! will not be big enough or hot enough for the weak kneed if the US suffers because of their perfidy.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
F-22/JSF Debate
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Date:
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7/15/2009 5:17:21 PM
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Predates Obama. It was being discussed at least 3 years ago when I was still working. The problem is that we are increasingly reliant on UAVs like the Predator and other non-manned systems. Of course the battlefield strategies have changed, the nature of the enemy has changed, but the people that run the Services and submit the budgets and lobby Congress haven't changed.
Yes, it is hard to give up jobs, especially now, but to continue to throw money at a bloated program is not the answer. Industry will tell you that it is the fault of the government because we stretched out the schedule and reduced the overall number os systems we are buying, and there is some truth to that. But, defense companies are notoriously bad for keeping to a schedule and keeping control of costs. Acquisition reform is trying to address that. And Gates is trying to address it, but if Congress continues to earmark funds in the Defense Budget for F-22, there isn't a lot Gates can do.
We're in a transitional time in Defense, but unless we take on enemies with large, highly capable air capabilites, I can make a case that we don't need both aircraft.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
F-22/JSF Debate
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Date:
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7/15/2009 5:24:19 PM
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One thing folks sometime overlook is that when we go to battle we assume that we will have superiority in the air. It has been that way for some time now, and our battle plans assume air superiority will be there. To keep that edge we will have to continue updating our force. Whether the F-22 or F-35 I don't know -- except that one is a bird in the hand, the other is somewhere out there in the bushes.
The other thing that bothers me is that some retired General was on the boob tube the other night and he made this statement: "If the F-22 goes head-to head with the F-35 100 times, the F-22 will win 100 times, without a doubt." That is a pretty strong statement, and makes me wonder why we are developing an aircraft that is not as capable as one that we already have.
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Having been a B-52 pilot
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Date:
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7/15/2009 7:40:40 PM
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for most of my adult life, I feel strongly both ways.. The 'old girl' brought me back from many combat missions in 2 wars, sometimes with a few battle scars, and is still a work horse.. The "BUFF" is a real aircraft!!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Archy..........
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Date:
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7/15/2009 8:02:18 PM
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The defense industry has I believe purposely put gutless elected representatives, especially senators, in a bind by spreading the work to as many locales as possible. These contractors are a lot more concerned about continuing to suck from the public teat and the bottom line than they are about national security or fiscal responsibility.
The F-22 cost almost $300,000,000 per copy and costs $50,000/hr to fly. It has serious and expensive maintenance issues and most glaring has never been un combat in any military theatre. W and Obama have tried to reign it in. It is a boon-doggle and I find it amusing and interesting that so many of the people who rant and rave loudest about ear-marks and pork when it is about study of volcanos or research of potato bugs or building museums just can't bring themselves to say no if it is for a military system that even the military doesn't want.
I also think it is interesting that so many anti Obama crowd are going around bad mouthing the use of Stimulus funds by the states to balance budgets for education and health rather than spending it on job creating infrastructure work. Well, in the first place, the infrastructure stimulus is just beginning (As someone familiar with construction I can tell you that even "shovel ready" projects take a lot of time to get off the ground) and in the second place what do they have against the teachers and healthcare workers whose jobs have been preserved?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
F-22/JSF Debate
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Date:
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7/15/2009 8:34:09 PM
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The F-22 has some classified capabilities that are special, but there is a tremendous amount of overlap in their capabilities. I used to know exactly what they were, but my memory isn't what it was and I wouldn't be able to discuss it here anyway. I do know that the military was amandant that the F-22 would not be offered for foreign sales because of those capabilities.
The JSF is being co-developed (not just coproduced) with foreign partners. The program office got way out ahead of the releasability community. But, without those foreign $$$ it would likely have never been produced. I spent about a year of my life leading a govt/industry team that addressed these releasability issues. And there is some commonality in the technologies with the F-22.
Both systems are highly integrated in a way that has not been done before.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Archy..........
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Date:
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7/15/2009 9:43:58 PM
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Darn right ... when it comes to national security, unless there is a better alternative immediately to replace I wilol support even if not the most cost effective. That keep youe freedom to post and say meaningless things. I am sure you like the programs like valcanos impact on roaches or whatever it was ... I can not believe even you could compare a defense program to some wasteful research or social program.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Please
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Date:
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7/15/2009 10:34:13 PM
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Please
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Date:
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7/15/2009 10:40:35 PM
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If it is such an integral part of our national defense why is the military (brass and civilian), the Sect'y of defense, the loser of the 2008 presidential campaign, the winner of the 2008 presidential campaign, and the winner of the 2004 presidential campaign all opposed to its continuation? Wasteful spending and pork is not confined to non-military endeavors. Where did you learn to spell?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Thank You, but
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Date:
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7/16/2009 6:57:35 AM
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you are missing the point again. You are obviously too dense to understand what so many keep trying to say. It is not that we support the program or even have any specific knowledge of it ... but in comparison of the WASTEFUL and SHAMEFUL spending that is going on, this at least has REAL jobs attached to it that exist today and cutting it without redirecting the spending to other military or defense uses, only contributes further to weakening our national security that "the messiah" has already done.
I think everyone is getting worn out having to explain things to you several times. I know you are slow and that is fine. We have all been patient to explain it multiple times. But now it is time for you to stop embarrassing yourself.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Hmmmm.....
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Date:
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7/16/2009 8:17:03 AM
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The cost of flying this jet sounds about the same as Pelosi's private jet. I wonder which jet is more important.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Uh Oh... Spelling Nazi's.....
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Date:
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7/16/2009 8:20:10 AM
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Wow ....
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Date:
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7/16/2009 9:40:38 AM
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Excellent point. :)
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
You are wrong about 1 thing
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Date:
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7/16/2009 11:11:43 AM
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I can assure you blaming the defense industry for the placement of their facilities is like blaming the pusher because you have a drug habit. Our elected officials are to blame for their willingness to exchange votes for jobs and the defense industry, like every other industry that relies on government business, simply plays the game according to the rules handed them.
As for my opposition to the stimulus, what I oppose is their idea of government controlled stimulus. To wit, take money from the productive, waste $2 out of every $3 on useless bureaucracy, provide all initial funds to inept state and local government to preserve and create more government jobs, and dole out the rest to political supporters three years after it's actually needed. I prefer the Republican's Economic Stimulus Plan that actually puts the money in the hands of the productive to return our economic engine to health and prosperity. If you need details I would be glad to send it to you.
As I said above I don't know enough about the F22 to know whether we need it for our national defense. Considering my belief that the federal government should only be limited to a very few areas, one of which is national defense, I would be more open to that spending program. Teachers, state and local government workers, health care for all, nationalization of private companies and so on are not the Constitutional business of the federal government. Central planning of the economy has never worked Comrade Archie!
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Obama backer for F22
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Date:
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7/17/2009 3:37:45 PM
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Still doesn't change my mind that I don't know enough about the F22 to have an opinion but this is at least an argument that not everyone agrees with the decision. Doesn't seem to have any particular hidden agenda but who knows.
Retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, who was the Air Force chief of staff during the 1991 Operation Desert Storm and who credited air power with winning the war, was the first four-star officer to endorse the one-term senator in his presidential campaign. Now he's criticizing the president on a key defense decision.
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