Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/16/2016 4:45:05 PM

Never gave much thought to how government employee unions came to be but recently read that they came to be by JFK signing an executive order. I would love to see Trump undo that EO. That would go a long way toward getting control of the entrenched bureaucracies that hold back change. I think the results of MN, WI, MI and PA show that there is a disconnect between the rank and file and union leadership in general.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/16/2016 5:56:36 PM

95% of the problems in the VA System are the result of UNIONs.  You can't fire the slugs who cause the holdups and problems.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/16/2016 9:51:18 PM

Actually, the unions have very little to do with the employees themselves. Most people do not belong to unions.  In my humble experience, unions spend more time talking about what can do than what they can actually do because of civil service rules and procedures.

The real problem is the evaluation system and it is very cumberson.  In order to fire an employee a superviser has to document poor performance and counsel the employee.  Then, there has to be an improvement plan put in place, and perfromance has to be documented every 30 days.  If there is improvement, then the whole thing stops.  If there isn't, then a supervisor has to document that.  Probably by this time, the employee with have filed a grievance with the Civilian personnel Office, and while they can't grieve performance, they can say that they are being held to a different standand.  At this point the supervisor and the next senior manager have to meet with CPO because they are the subject of grievance and are on the defensive to prove they are treating the employee to the same standard. Now it gets really complicated, generally speaking, the employee will be given another chance and the superviosr is now documenting performance again. One of the problems is that to some extent, performance reviews of somewhat subjective.  This is not a factory where you can measure #of widgets produced, but involve analysis, so it is pretty hard to define the fine line.  The Civil Service laws are written to protect the employee - that was to protect employees from retribution from political bosses, firing them to hire their friends.  It takes about 3 years to fire an employee, assuming that a supervisor has not been told by their Agency or Department to stand down.  It happens. 

Now I managed to fire an Office Director in less than 90 days.  He had used government money inappropriately and displayed poor judgement in the use of the taxpayers funds.  He had a security clearance.  Because of his actions, I asked the DIA to look into it and they pulled his security clearance.  If you need a security clearance to work at a job, and you don't have one, then you are unable to perform your duties and if you can't perform your duties, you must be let go.  And security clearance issues are not CPO issues, they are Security issues.

As far as the VA, employees probably have a very easy excuse.  The need literally exceeds the resources.  I'm not saying that the VA isn't bad, because it is awful.  But a lot of what happens there is beyond their control.  VA has a very low pay grade structure, so you are not getting top talent.  And they are not staffed for the workload.  The best thing the VA could do is hire an outside hospital Administrator (or 100) that knows something about running hospital type organizations.  A friend knew a retired 1 star that got a job there after retirement, but he had no experience with hosptial administration.  That's likely what you get. And don't foreget that the Drs. are mostly contract, so other than how they are personally, they don't really have any incentive to work more hours.

Nothing about the government is easy.  And to change those laws, you are going to fight history, and the CPO itself.  The Union makes a lot of noise, but I'm not sure how much influrence they have.  We could discuss who runs the unions, but we'll leave it there.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/17/2016 8:59:25 AM

I understand all the civil service protection krap in place, but the question is:  Who put such stupid regulations in place? Was it unions buying off congress?  How can it be fixed?

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/17/2016 1:23:03 PM

I read that he plans changes to the civil service system but I also read that as many as 25% of federal employees would quit if he was elected. I'm sure they will quit like all those "celebrities" that were leaving the country if he was elected. Haha. I don't remember when this I'll leave the country if meme became so popular but it is really tiresome. It just becomes more proof that they have no morals and a warped belief system. Not to mention their narcissism to think that anybody really cares. We'll anybody outside their "posse" of yes people that constantly tell them how important they are and how profound their opinions are.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/17/2016 9:05:45 PM

As I said, these laws and regulations were put in place years and years ago, to protect career civil servants from bosses and political appointees who would fire at whim.  Employees are entitled to due process.  Most superviors do not have the time or the heart to go through the improvement plans, grievances only to be left hanging by their own management if someone threatens a lawsuit.  yes, you can be sued by the employees and most supervisors and managers carry personal liability insurance which is not reimbursed by the government. 

How do you change it?  You have to change the laws and regulations.  It's been attempted in the past, usually to go down in flames.  Don Rumsfeld tried to change it for Department of Defense.  They spent millions of dollars implemented a new system, only to have it abandoned as soon as he left.  The system needs to be streamlined, without so many levels of "due process".  Seriously, my sister had a problem employee who also happened to be a minority.  They began the procedure, he filed a grievance and it took over 4 years to conclude.  And in the end, the employee "won". 

Now I have another friend that managed to get fired (it seemed questionable).  First they pulled his clearance, then they put him on paid administrative leave for a year.  Because it involved his security clearance, he had to find a lawyer that specialized in that area.  He basically spent every dime he had trying to get reinstated, but he didn't win.  They were able to do it so quickly, because of the security cleanarnce thing (he worked for one of the intell agencies), and he was in the exepted service, which means he did not have the same rights than if he had been non-exempt. 

The hiring process can be equally frustrating.  If you have a disabled veteran show up on your list, even if he isn't qualified for the job, you will have to hire him, unless he finds and accepts another job.  You cannot touch anyone below him on the list, even if they are more qualified. 

A friend had an employee who through urine a the tech, on a mandatory drug testing.  this was a guy that was a troublemaker and it was not his first time in trouble.  They couldn't even fire him; he just got days off without pay. 

These are the reasons why some refuse to take a supervisory or management positions.  It is just too frustrating  And supervisors and managers don't get paid extra to deal with this stuff.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/17/2016 9:41:39 PM

It's krap like that that convinced me to get out of the military.  How anyone with motivation to succeed can maintain sanity as a manager in that environment is beyond me.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/18/2016 7:47:10 PM

When it comes to personnel, it can be a nightmare.  I was lucky to supervise and later manage highly graded professionals, which made it much better.  I only had a few problems that were sticky.  Sometimes when I changed jobs (as a manager), I found ways to make an uncomfortable environment for some that were marginal employees and at retirement age and they left.  I was able to replace them with younger people that had a great attitude and were just as qualified.  I also rehired some military officers that had worked in the office, retired from the military and wanted to come back.  It's was like having a 3 year trial period. 

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/18/2016 8:27:11 PM

I always worked in a world of 60-90 day performance targets.  Luckily we were able to select people who had a proven career of success in their field so turn over was not significant.  The greatest display of incompetence has always been Federal employees....at least to me.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/18/2016 8:52:09 PM

Hound are you familiar with the Peter Principle? Seems like I mentioned it sometime in the past and you seemed unfamiliar with it. I knew of it before it being covered in a a management class in business school. It is very simple, in a bureaucracy everyone is promoted to their highest level of incompetence. The rational is it is easier to promote than terminate and gets them out from under whoever recommends them for promotion. I can't believe you spent 30+ years in federal government and never experienced it, or more importantly took advantage of it. If you didn't maybe you have heard about the suckered at the poker table. Just in case you don't know that one it's simple also, look around the poker table and if you can't spot the sucker, then it's you. You can't deny the Peter Principle exists. It has been taught in business schools for decades. I witnessed it in my short time on a government funded agency. One of the reasons I had to get out.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/18/2016 8:56:08 PM

Peter Principle=Barack Obama.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/18/2016 8:57:10 PM

Very apropos.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/19/2016 4:06:35 PM

I guess it depends who you are dealing with.  VA? SS?  I saw a lot of incompetence on the part of State Department and Commerce Department.  But a lot of it comes from who is at the top of an organization and how often they interact with their own employees. Attitude starts at the top.  I had a director that thought everyone was out to get her, so that is what she preached to the employees.  I don't think it is necessarily a problem limited to the government, because it is so related to human nature.  If an organization developed a seige mentality (like I expect exists right now in VA), it's going to take a major overhaul to change it. 

It's like when FEMA was put under Homeland Security.  They felt they were under seige after Katrina. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/19/2016 4:22:28 PM

Yes, I am familar with the Peter Principle.  And for a lot of years, it drove my career, because I knew I could do a better job than most of my bosses in those years.  But I don't think it is exclusive to the government.  I have known some incompetents, but I have also known some really great leaders to, both career people and in appointees.  One example was Gordon England.  He was the Deputy Secretary of Defense under Rumsfelt and was in industry before that.  Brilliant man and practical. 

I had a AF Major who worked for me for a time.  A Howard University alum, he was incompetent, he didn't make friends with the other AF officers in the office, and I believed he had just been passed along from rank to rank, to satisfy someone's EEO requirement.  He claimed I was trying to end his career when I gave him an eval, damning him with faint praise.  I had no control over whether the AF would continue to promote him or not.

You know, I run into to all the time.  At the bank, where the customer service person can't seem to answer the simplest question without calling someone else, I find it in retail, etc.  And those are places were people could easily be fired.  I think it has to do with managers that just don't want to deal with the unpleasantness of actually teaching people, correcting people, firing people.  They settle for mediocre.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/19/2016 4:32:34 PM

Before you accuse me of hating the Military - this AF Major was the worst I had ever seen.  Didn't bother to make friends with the 5-6 AF officers I had working in my office (and you know that generally doesn't happen).  Only other one I had a problem with was an Navy Speechwriter.  He was fired  from his previous assignment and ended up in my office.  He was a complusive liar and I finally kicked him out of my office.  I really think he was sick. 

The vast majority of AF officers I had were very good.  For a lot of them, it was their last assignment and I gladly hired them back as a civilian. There was one I had my doubts about, not because of his work, but he was a bit of a whiner.  But his team leader and his team wanted me to hire him back, so I did.  Apparently they didn't mind his whining.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/19/2016 6:36:50 PM

Yes the Peter Principle applies in big corporations in today's world especially. But you are wrong about folks being easy to fire just because they work in retail.  They have the same rights and privileges as any others and trust me,  many of them are well versed in how to work the system and are going through life looking for a "suit".  I had to have an irrefutable" paper trail" before I could fire several incompetent employees through the years. In most cases you could just make life so miserable that the marginal ones would quit but many refused because they knew they couldn't get unemployment benefits if they quit. I had some that would complain up the food chain but I had always covered my bases before they ever made the first calls once wrote up an assistant manager 3 times in one day. All very minor things go that I would never even mention if I weren't already well into a paper trail on her. Every instance was documented and stuck. Of course I had to put up with HR and LP(loss prevention)  crawling up my azz with a microscope for a while but it was worth it. Like I said, I had my bases covered. I didn't hire her.  She was transfered into me and I didn't find out till well into it her previous manager had already started a paper trail on her and was happy to see her go when the slot opened up in my store. That Peter Principle thing can work laterally as well. She actually did file suit and won but not because I fired her. The suit ended up in class action  status and I was included because of management status. Every manager/asst Mgr was included unless you opted out. The only one I k own that opted outed went on to be a Regional Vice-president last I heard. I got a nice little chunk of change. Took a really nice vacation in a tropical paradise and then won enough at the poker table my last night to pay for the trip. Sometimes life works out

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Government employee unions
Date:	11/19/2016 9:06:26 PM

Now you know why sometimes it's just easier to do nothing (not that I advocate for that, but it is easier).  but see what I mean about how time consuming it becomes, creating a papertrail to cover your butt, so you can win when they finally just sue you.  Evn if the suit goes no where, they can tie up your assets (put a lien on your home, your car, your savings) for a long time. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/19/2016 11:20:33 PM

Not sure what prompted that.....but in my experience both the active duty military and the civilian workforce have lions and dolts.  My most trusted customer absolutely despises Air Force officers, active and retired, except one.  I guess I may have missed the "how to be an a$$hole" class in OTS, and thus am the exception.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/20/2016 12:35:51 PM

well, you have suggested in the past that I was down on the military. 

I'm glad you have a situation where someone has made an exception to their "rule".  LOL. I hate when people made broad sweeping assumptions about a group of people.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/20/2016 12:44:41 PM

Now, now Hodja, some will say you DID NOT miss that class!

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/20/2016 1:13:53 PM

Yet you did it yesterday about retail employees. So it really just depends on the socio-economic status of the group?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/20/2016 6:54:41 PM

I didn't make any sweeping statements about retail.  My point was that you can find it in retail as well as many other places, and that it is not limited to government employees. 

One thing - I don't make sweeping assumptions about any particular group - even the ones that voted for Hillary.  There are good people, incompetent people, smart people and stupid people in any group you might devise. 

As far as your comment about socio-economic status - ?????  I'm a big supporter of retail.  I do think it is unfortunate that many companies that are in retail don't train or put an emphasis on customer service.  If I have to compete with someone's cell phone that is being paid to take my money, then I consider that a failure of customer service training. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	11/20/2016 9:32:57 PM

Let's see if we can come up with some candidates,,,,Goofy....Archie...maybe Copper.....

But I am such a teddy bear...??