Name:	rga82 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 7:25:51 AM

I had a new boat lift installed during spring 2013. I was able to launch my boat at 482.8 during the spike in the water level last winter. The cradle was on the bottom so 482.8 is about the minimum for the lift. I remember apco's request for a winter pool variance of 483 to ferc. Are there any updates to that request? Thanks.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 10:53:50 AM

According to Outlook articles, and talking with him at an LMRA meeting, Jim Crew is "cautiously optimistic."  The hay is in the barn, they have filed their final report with FERC. There's no deadline on FERC but I think they hope to hear something by the end of the year. The reason he's optimistic is that FERC granted them meetings all along the way to study the data and evidence they were proposing to submit.

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 12:23:38 PM

We need to know in advance so that we are able to modify our boathouses for 483.

With a little work, I can deploy both the boat and the scooter.

Even if winter levels go 483, there still should be mandated construction periods at 480 or less.

Name:	Jubel Foster -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 1:00:00 PM

so if no decision before end of the year, what will winter level be this year?

Name:	Osms -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 1:27:16 PM

We hope FERC will issue the EIS, Environmental Impact Statement, before the end of 2014.  That document will give an indication of whether FERC approves of the winter level increase.  If all goes well and the 12 downstream farmers don't file objections, and none of the dozens of stakeholders officially object, then there is a possibility the final license will be issued in spring of 2015, and the water levels can be raised during the winter of '15 & '16.  There is a provision in the application to lower the lake to 480' every 5 years, for dock maintenance, provided there is no ongoing drought.  

The lake level for this coming winter will be 480' MD.

Name:	rga82 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 2:32:11 PM

Thanks John C and OSMS, good information.

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 7:29:10 PM

  Changing the FERC will be a disaster since the drainage area is app. 3000 square miles and will result in floods after floods and wasted water over the damn.  Water over the damn and not thru it results with higher power bills for rate payers and losses for APCO

Name:	Hadenuff -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 7:54:28 PM

Yep you are full. Time for a laxative

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 8:35:45 PM (updated 7/23/2014 8:39:34 PM)

That is patently untrue.  Have you read APCO's submission where they have studied this very well?  There have been any number of tropical storms in the late summer when water levels were well above 483' and APCO has been able to manage the flow through the dam so flooding downstream does not occur.  And the comments about lost power generation is likewise uninformed. The generators can only use a certain amount of flow and anything above bypasses them just like every other hydro dam.  When APCO loses power generation capacity it is during drought, not as a result of high precip events. Those actually help as the water can be stored in the lake and used later for power generation.  Please do yourself a favor and read their studies and submission to FERC and stop fear mongering with abject nonsense. 

Name:	Little Talisi -	Reply
Subject:	Thank You MM
Date:	7/23/2014 10:04:16 PM

The facts are that the turbines only turn at one speed. Amount of water flowing has nothing to do with the amount generated. It has been the late winter storms when the lake has been within two feet of full pool that have caised the greatest amount of downstream problems. APCO has had plenty of experience dealing with the storms and they will present no problems.

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 10:19:35 PM

  We will see.  When this lake was built it was for power generation not recreation or lake homes. you would probly have been screaming about yellow fever. Dont critize me for my opinion. I have been here since 1963 on the lake every year since.

  just let me know how you plan on working on your pier and such with 483. 

  I hope they do rise the level as you wish i will gladly repost your earlier rants!!

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 10:52:16 PM

  Martiniman the areas heavyest rainfall occurs in winter and sping not when the lake is at full pool. The weather systems in the winter and spring usually occur every three or four days not once or twice in 3-4 months.  The heavy rains you speak of are generated by tropical storms. 

  Think about it this way.  The power company starts filling the lake around the middle of Feb. and it is usually full or very close by mid april.

  my point is this lake fills in a short time when in the past the lake is at its lowest.  Add 3 feet of water at this time of year and you will have problems

Name:	randyman -	Reply
Subject:	Really?
Date:	7/23/2014 10:53:51 PM

How about some facts to back up your POV? The amount of time you've been on the lake does not translate to knowing everything. Please....

Name:	Osms -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 11:27:15 PM

APCo seems to have perfected the computerized operation of their dams over the past few years.  If you take a look at the lake levels of all of APCo dams you will see that levels are maintained almost to the nearest inch or two because all dams are operated by computers in Birmingham, not local operators as was done for decades. This expertise makes most conventional historical experiences obsolete.  Yes, flood gates are still operated the old way, I'm talking of generator timing, etc.  Anticipation of required flow rates to prevent floods provided by computerization will provide the safety margin necessary to raise the old winter lake level.

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	Really?
Date:	7/23/2014 11:29:31 PM

  what facts would you like?

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/23/2014 11:42:28 PM

  It amazes me how many people are experts on damn operations and lake level with so little time on the lake.  after 50 yrs of being on the lake and 30 yrs in construction many of those  working with stormwater run off and mother nature.  I feel as if i am entitled to my opinion and thoughts on the matter.

 I saw a flood here in the last 7 years where a local bridge was covered with water while the bridge 6 mi upstream was not neither was the bridge 6 mi down steam. only hwy 22 at wadley.  The wadley bridge also is higher off the water and also the river is wider at wadley than at malone and germany ferry.

Name:	Aardvark -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 7:50:56 AM

I would like to see them take it down to '07 levels one winter.  There are some big rocks that I wanted to dig up and move to the high water line, but a change in work schedule prevented it in '07.  That would also give me a chance to rebuild my beach areas with sand from the low water areas.

Name:	Osms -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 9:39:28 AM

Just to clarify for readers, the flood referred to by realfast occurred in late May 2003.  Heavy rains (8+") hit the Wadley area miles upstream from Lake Martin, which flooded the river in that area.  Yes, the river covered the river bridge in that area as well as river side land.  Lake Martin was close to the 490' level at the time and never went above 490' as a result of the localized Wadley flood.  If our lake had been totally empty at the time Wadley would have still flooded just as much as it did at that time.  Water spreads out and moves slowly downstream which takes time.  The elevation of Wadley is 682', almost 200' above Lake Martin, so there is no way Lake Martin could have possibly affected that flood.

BTW, when the water arrived in our lake, APCo opened flood gates to move the waters downstream.  This action resulted in a lawsuit against APCo by 12 landowners who farm the flood plains south of Tallassee.  They lost the lawsuit all the way to the Al Supreme Court.  The computerized operation of the dam will certainly help lessen the flood potential downstream by reacting quicker to upstream demands.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 10:01:25 AM

I figure folks that are impacted by 483 will do the maintanence the same way all the other folks in the world that live on water that doesn't draw down in winter work on theirs.  There are a lot more folks that live on constant level lakes than than winter draw lakes, not to mention natural lakes, coastal regions, river folks, folks on run of the river lakes, and last but not least those that already have year round water.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 10:06:12 AM

Well why didn't you just tell us that you have a degree in hydrology and all the cumputer modeling software available in the world to run simulations in the first place.  It is obviuos with this post that you must since you know so much about the water patterns of the river basin.

sarcasm <OFF>

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 10:21:22 AM

Pot, meet kettle.  You were the one ranting without any basis in fact. How do people on year round water work on their docks?  Same way I will if the water level is raised, which I hope it does. You are probably one of those that resents everyone that moved onto the lake right after you did.  Typical ill informed NIMBY.......or maybe NOML....Not on MY Lake. APCO knows what they are doing so chill out and enjoy that additional water.....I know I will. 

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 10:24:18 AM

With every post you show more and more intolerable ignorance.  Please tell us how many times in the 80+ years of Lake Martin has she left her banks.  Oh, thats right, she NEVER has.  So far in the history of LM only once has there ever been a flood that could have sent her out of her impoundment and that was in May of 1979.  Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on ones perspective she didn't have the capabillity at that time because the flood waters flowed around the dam to continue downstream.  But that issue has been corrected now and will never repeat.

I will point out that the storm that caused that flooding came at or close to full pool at a time when weather radar was in it's infancy and weather modeling was still a dream.  APCO knew it was coming and took all measures to prevent it (all 21 gates open) but couldn't.  There were no central data collection points making the calls.  Basically each dam operator spoke on the phone with others trying to determine how much water to release when.  Now they release water in advance of heavy systems coming through in order to minimize impact on all stakeholders.  These same naysayers were proven wrong when the original draw down of 50' was cut to 30' and even louder when the 30' was cut to the current 10'.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 10:25:03 AM

Agree about when the majority of the rains happen but my point still stands. There have been tropical storms in the late summer when the water level has been well,above 483 and they were able to manage it. And unlike 50 years ago they have the ability to anticipate these kind of events and handle them well.  Just look at how few turbines they run when they are filling the lake. Read their study and you will understand how they will handle this. 

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 10:34:14 AM

You seem to be under the delussional belief that once they start to raise the lake that all downstream flow is halted and that is what fills the basin.  That is the only reasoning I can see that would make you draw such erroniuos conclusions.  You couldn't be more wrong.  when the level is raised to 483 it will be accompanied by a shorter 'rule curve' for filling her up.  Even if the curve weren't changed they would compensate by sending more water downstream daily to maintain the curve for filling less water in a shorter time frame.

Your ignorace on the subject has been shown so you really should just use that blinding 'realfast' speed to go away.  After all you moved and haven't 'looked back' so why are you so interested that you keep posting ignorant, irrellevant posts on the subject.  Me?  I got a slow day today and can do this all day so on second thought keep it up and I might not get bored today.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Any facts would be a good start
Date:	7/24/2014 11:01:48 AM

I think we all understand you oppose the change and you are not alone. But base your opposition on something other than unfounded conjecture and we could possibly get to a point of agreeing to disagree on the subject.   But fear mongering about flooding doesn't tend to engender confidence in your views. I am quite sure APCO has actually given it some thought. 

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 11:21:33 AM

 Well one reason heavy rains do not effect the lake in sumer is leaf mass on trees that absorb water and the dry soil created by higher temperatures and less rainfall in summer. In the winter trees have few to no leaves to help absorb water and ground is more saturated or moist due to shorter days and more rainfall in our winter. These conditions cause more run off thus creating longer flood conditions.

 Geese didnt think my thoughts would create such name calling and pointing out my ignorance!! I hope to never feel the need to point out others ignorance on this site or any site for that matter.  Have we lost the art of dissagreement and conversation?  Why do some feel threatened when someone does not hold our same belives?

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 11:29:17 AM

  In no way was i saying lake martin caused the Wadley Flood mearly trying to point out that rain is not a constant!!  Just because it is raining at my house does not mean it is raining at your house!  What I am saying that there are numerious varables and constants that need to be examined before things are changed!  BUT THE TWO THINGS SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTTON ARE WATER ALWAYS COLLECTS AT THE LOWEST POINT AND WILL NEVER RUN UPHILL WITHOUT GODS HAND AND IT IS THE MOST POWERFUL FORCE ON EARTH!!

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 11:38:52 AM

  OSMS, Lifer, and martiniman need to research how leaf canopy, and dry/wet or saturated soil conditions effect run off of rain.  It is a very  interesting read especially for those that have no idea of what i am speaking about.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 12:01:09 PM

Uh, just so you know I have a BSc and MSc in Geology with coursework in hydrology and hydrogeology so you can rest assured I understand the impact that vegetation has on precipitation flow. Just do the math if you have gumption on the storativity of Lake Martin with 7' of freeboard. But you seem to be willing to totally ignore all the scientists that APCO used to study the potential impact of raising the water level three feet in the winter.  No offense, but I'm more confident in them than I am in someone that read an article  about how trees and grass help control precipitation and reduce runoff.  Unless you think they are either incompetent, lying or both.  I don't but I suppose anything is possible. 

My guess is you like things the way they are and oppose change. Maybe you have year round water but like having full access to your dock and piers with the level of 480' and to heck with those that would benefit.  Couldn't really say for sure but I do understand you disagree with the change and most of us are all for it.  But I can assure you that if APCO's studies indicated it would be a problem I and the others would be disappointed but would understand. And yes, if we suddenly have an outbreak of Yellow Fever because they raise the level by three feet in the winter on Lake Martin I will be the first to apologize to you and all the other opponents.

Name:	realfast64 -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 1:30:39 PM

   You do have a Bs and you use it well. I never stated raising the lake level 3 feet would cause a outbreak of yellow fever. I asume that is one of your degrees you speak of at work!  I hope you know me and i hope to never know who you are nor do i hope you to ever be in my presence.   do not resopnd to this post Tini  pleasee.

  I took the liberty to look at your profile and noticed you have many opinions and have no problem voiceing them. I like a man that does not mind stating his position. I only have problems people that resort to belittle others to get their point across. My experience has taught me that they have a hidden problem that causes that condition.. I hope this is not true here and it was just an over sight of yours an maybe from a stressful day. I hope your days get better and and you have a good day.

  My grandfather said it  best "The opinionated people are the ones that think other people do not have the right to speak their opinion unless it agree with their opionion."

  Again please do not reply and let's let this die. I am sure there are better subjects to discuss.  AND I APPOLGIZE TO ALL FOR THESE RANTS AND SPARRING. AGAIN I APPOLIGIZE TO ALL.

Name:	jalcz -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 3:06:08 PM

realfast64 said: Changing the FERC will be a disaster since the drainage area is app. 3000 square miles and will result in floods after floods and wasted water over the damn.  Water over the damn and not thru it results with higher power bills for rate payers and losses for APCO

--

I'm one of those who would rather see winter levels remain the same, but even I know that that's a load of manure!

Name:	jalcz -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 3:09:31 PM

Exactly what do you mean by "here?" I'm curious because in another thread you state quite plainly that you sold your place on the lake.

"Sold in Feb. and have not miss it one minute."

So are you here, or not here? Are you on the lake, or have you left? You have to pick one; you can't have it both ways. Nope, not even if being a liar is the only way you can make your point.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 3:36:47 PM

You were the one that mentioned yellow fever in an earlier response to me and I was responding tongue in cheek......does not come through in writing so my apologies.  Yes I have opinions and I have no problem with friendly and not so friendly banter......just ask GF or some of the other left wing nuts that post here.  I was specifically responding to your concerns about flooding which are unfounded as the APCO studies and submission to FERC demonstrated through the use of science.  No one is trying to run anone off the forum but you can't make a post like the one you did and not expect a response.

As for my posts being BS, perhaps you can explain where I was in error.  Again, you don't want the level raised for whatever reason. Fine. But my reaction was to unfounded and erroneous concerns and information.  Sorry if that came across as antagostic but my pet peeve is posts lacking facts, logic or reason.  I am curious though if you read the APCO submission to FERC and why you think it is wrong.

Name:	beachhunter -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 3:45:59 PM

Does everyone realize that higher winter levels will create more algae growth which equals poorer water quality & muckey beaches?

Name:	Osms -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/24/2014 4:01:48 PM

That possiblity was studied during relicensing and the study determined that lowering the lake level 7 feet will prevent any algea and plant growth just as well as lowering it 10 feet.  Study is published in filing:  FERC.gov .

If the lake were left at 490 all year then there may be a "chance" for growth, but you have to remember, Lake Martin enjoys water that is mostly not polluted by city sewers-phosphates, industrial run off-bad stuff,  row crop land-fertilizer, AND we don't get anyof the terrible stuff from Atlanta, like the Coosa and the Chattahoochee get.  Most of our run off is from forest land. 

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	apco winter level request and ferc
Date:	7/26/2014 12:44:41 PM

Can't we all just get along?   -   Rodney King