Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 10:41:52 AM

Acording to an article in the Federal Times, February 2016

30, 872 people were fired from the Federal Government in the period 2010-2014.  2014 had the lowest numeber of firings, 2010 had the highest number of firings.   Homeland Security had the highest number of firings, with the Army and Navy close behind.  Because of the arcane process that managers have to go though to fire someone, there are a high number of suspensions without pay, and other disciplinary actions.

The overall percentage of firings in industry is 3.4%, keeping in mind that industry employees do not have the right to appeal their dismissal like government employees do.  But overall, it is wrong to say that no one is held accountable.  And the number does not include those employees in the disciplinary process who chose to quit, rather than being formally fired. 

I had an employee that was a 70 year old engineer of Indian decent.  He got sick and spent a year out of work, using all of his vacation and sick days and was, for a period of time, on Leave without pay.  My deputy and I tried our hardest to convince him to retire (he was eligible), but he refused.  We started working with personnel to put him out on a medical retirement, and then he came back to work.  Given his age and his medical history, he wasn't a ball of fire but he did his job.  What were my chances of firing him?  Slim and none - age  discrimination, ethnic orign discrimination, as I was warned by personal.  He certainly didn't get any pats on the back and promotions.  As long as he did his job, I couldn't touch him.  But he was far from the norm.

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 1:01:34 PM

funny the IRS scandal disappeared from the news; are we still funding Lois lerner to stay home ??

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 1:03:18 PM

30,872 fired --isnt that another government word for  "reassigned"??; wonder how many were hired in that period --Hmmm

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 2:06:48 PM

No, fired does not mean reassigned, fired means seperated from goverment service.  "Reassigned" means moved to another job.  There is a process by which you can have someone downgraded, and moved to a lessor job for performance issues.  Under the current laws, it can take up to two years to actually seperate someone - because they have appeal processes and even failing that, they can sue in civil court.  Not all performance issues are the employees fault.  Sometimes it is just not a good fit for their skills, and reassignment is the answer.  Sometimes, some time off without pay will result in an attitude adjustment.  As a former manager, the goal is not to fire people, but to find a way to best utilize them - and that is not so different than private industry.  In fact, I had broad experience with defense industry and I only know of 4 people that were actually fired.  One for deliberately ignoring the law, and 3 others that ended up going to jail. 

So it is not like there is no accountability.  There is plenty of accountability and ethics and standards.  I've been retired now for almost 10 years, and I have no reason to lie about it.  That is no longer my world and I can discuss with you where the real problems lie.  One of the biggest problem I see in the VA is the low grade structure.  A low grade structure doesn't necessarily attract high quality people or highly motivated ones.  And I personally believe that they are so understaffed and overwhelmed, it doesn't surprise me that people start taking a "I don't care" attitude.  Many of the VA centers and hospitals are located in bad areas, where people don't want to work.  They contact a lot of their Drs.  and I ask you - what kind of Dr do you think would work for much less pay than on the outside? 

As far as I know, at least in the Army civilian workforce where my sister is a manager, they have been under a hiring freeze for the past two years.  Not many promotions under a hiring freeze.  And with projection budget cuts, it is quite possible there will be a non-voluntary reduction in force (that means firing), more time off without pay, and more consolidations (which cost very much on the front end, but supposedly save money in the long run.)

One thing I was just reading about is that with the emphaisis on hiring veterans, the veterans now believe that they are being guarenteed a government job.  Veterans are given preference for hiring and for promotions, but there aren't any guarentees, because they have to be basically qualified for the job.  One of the complaints I have read is that in some cases they are hired, but then don't really work out, for a variety of reasons.  Temperment, skill levels, inability to adjust to an office environment are creating additional burdens for managers. 

But I will tell you this - if you are a veteran, and particularly a disabled veteran, you will be the last one out of the building when they shut the place down. 

I don't expect you to change your mind, but these are some facts and views as I see them.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 2:48:33 PM

That was an interesting summary which some will buy into and others will continue to wear a blindfold. Thanks. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 3:29:46 PM

With my blindfold securely in place, I would still put Greta in charge of accountability in a good value new york minute.  I did say it was my amateur opinion, but Lois Lerner, Danny Werfel, IRS extravgant parties, bonuses for bad performance and the like are exactly the ones I saw barely thru the blindfold. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 7:12:46 PM

Well, if you won't see the truth, I can't help you.  You mentioned what?  about 12 people, and two of them were Political appointees, not government employees.  The IRS example is limited to a couple of guys with bad judgement should not be a damnation of the whole IRS.  You are going to have to come up with some specific cases for me of performance awards for bad performance. 

You know, in the govenment, we talked a lot about optics.  Things that could be interpreted as bad or look bad from the view of the media.  All the cases you hear about are the exceptions, not anywhere close to the norm. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 8:26:11 PM

That is the issue.  Litigation pushes folks to avoid writing the truth on individuals.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 8:31:54 PM

Your "norm" isn't gospel.  My norm is that in over 48 years of service to the government, as a military officer, defense contractor working with the Navy, and defense contractor working with the defense health management enterprise, I have NEVER seen a civil servant dismissed for cause.  There is more than a little truth to the civil service rocket syndrome.  Protest as you will, my experience is much different than yours.  In fact, I have been reminded recently by my government customer that the reliance on contractors has an ulterior motive....you can dismiss an underperforming contractor much easier than a similarly underperforming civil servant.  That is my reality, Hound.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	4/27/2016 10:38:56 PM

And if I were you, I would be embarassed to take a paycheck from an institution for which you have such disrespect.  You obviously have no respect for the people that actually write the contract for your services.  That's really low.  I would't do it.

The Federal Times article proves your view of the world is WRONG.  deal with it.  If you have spent 46 years working, maybe it is time for you to retire. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	LakenGulf, Fly Fisher
Date:	4/27/2016 10:41:09 PM

Put your blindfold back on.  FYI, as a manager, I carried Personal Liability Insurance in addition to free legal representation by the government, so I was never worried about litagation. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	4/28/2016 6:52:42 AM

I don't disrespect them, I recognize that the system in place forces them to use contractors so they aren't forced to do tons of paperwork to get rid of dead wood.  We lost one of our team members recently when she lost the confidence of senior management.  A phone call from the COR to the company COO was all it took to have her removed.  I also recognize that the same call could be made about me and I would be gone.

As to retirement, I am perfectly able to make that decision for myself and don't need your "advice".

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	4/28/2016 7:41:56 AM

Does it strike anyone else as strange that hound preaches to us about how accountable gov employees are in one post and in another tells of of the 2 year process to got rid of them. I like all the other options besides firing. Seems many are available but the only one we ever hear about is suspended with pay. Nobody but government sees that as anything other than what it is, a paid vacation. Let's see, 2 years to fire a government employee and probably a 2 minute phone call to fire a contract employee., obviously the government employee is more accountable.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Hodja
Date:	4/28/2016 7:41:57 AM

Does it strike anyone else as strange that hound preaches to us about how accountable gov employees are in one post and in another tells of of the 2 year process to got rid of them. I like all the other options besides firing. Seems many are available but the only one we ever hear about is suspended with pay. Nobody but government sees that as anything other than what it is, a paid vacation. Let's see, 2 years to fire a government employee and probably a 2 minute phone call to fire a contract employee., obviously the government employee is more accountable.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Fact is...
Date:	4/28/2016 9:31:17 AM

Federal gubment employees probably have less respect nationwide than any other group.  It seems that Feds greatest source of recruitment might be fired Walmart slugs......and that's not fair to Walmart employees.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Lifer
Date:	4/28/2016 9:46:54 AM

Actually, you may have misread my post.  I think I said time off WITHOUT pay. 

You know, the employees and the managment do not write the personnel rules.  A lot of this is based on laws. Those laws favor the employee.  To fire someone on a performance issue it takes 2 years.  Because managers are required to document and employees get to respond and what amounts to improvement plans and responses.  Sometimes it works and the employee realizes that they are in serious dodo and they improve.  So what do managers do?  Sometimes they make it so upleasant for the employee, that they quit or they retire.  I've done this.  Got rid of two low perfomers that way. 

When I was an Office Director, I had a 70 year old Engineer, who also happened to be Indian.  He could not sit with his team, because he got his doctor to write him a note saying that that he had to be next to a window.  He got very sick with kidney disease.  He was out for months with pay using his built up sick and vacation days.  His work then had to be done by others.  Went to personnel to find out what could be done.  Nothing.  After he used up all his paid leave, he applied for leave without pay.  Leave without pay is left to the discretion of the manager.  Working with personnel, we denied his request.  My deputy and I pointed out to him that he was eligible to retire.  He refused.  So we started working on pushing him into medical retirement.  He came back to work.  He did what he had to do, but he was taking up time and space.  Nothing I could do.  Personnel told me to back off or I would be liable for age and national origin grievances, and even if we were successful in getting him out, he would likely be reinstated on appeal.  So I was stuck with a very sick 70 year old who did the minimum, and my hands were tied. 

Once in a while, someone does something so outrageous that they have to be fired.  In he case of my office manager that I fired, I requested that his security clearance be pulled.  He was escorted from the building.  He needed a security clearance to work.  We put him on leave without pay while an investigation was done.  Personnel wrote the letters, and he was out on the street because he needed a security clearance to work, but his behavior and actions (involve serious breech of effective stewardship of government funds) kept his security clearance from being restored and he was fired. 

Congress curses government employees, yet they do nothing to pass legislatin to change the laws that would eliminate all the documentation and appeals.  The Union get involved (and realistically no professional people belong to the union, but it is still there) and the Equal Opportunity people get involved and nothing changes. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Lifer
Date:	4/28/2016 9:58:35 AM

But there is accountability.  there are letters of reprimand, time off without pay, denial of promotion, etc, unsuccesful performance reviews.  And they do get used.  But for political appointees, schedule C's, there are no rules.  They can be fired or retained, they don't get performance evaluations and they don't get fired - they are offered an opportunity to resign.  Most of the people like Lois Lerner are political appointees.... So you would have to ask the political appointees why there is no accountability. 

This is nothing new.  Doesn't matter what political stripe of the Administration.  Political Appointees are in their jobs as long as whoever appointed them wants them there.  And when it becomes a problem, they are offered the opportunity to resign. 

And BTW, I've made those calls to contractors and had employees removed.  Except in the case where I had a contractor downloading porn to his computer, most of the time they just get assigned to another contract.  They don't usually just get fired.  They are hired for a specific skill usually for a specific contract, but in my experience, most of the time they are just moved to another contract.   My sister is a support contractor.  She has her own business. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Fact is...
Date:	4/30/2016 12:04:32 AM

Only in this neck of the South.  They're pretty popular in Huntsville, and I think a lot of people in Montgomery like them too. 

Wix, just what is it that you do for a living?

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	What do I do for a living?
Date:	4/30/2016 9:03:07 AM

Aggravate you!!  BTW! I thought you had me on ignore.....guess you're just too nosy...

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Fact is...
Date:	4/30/2016 10:28:06 AM (updated 4/30/2016 10:29:13 AM)

"Gubmint" workers are held in higher esteem than *funeral directors, used car dealers and lawyers...my guess is you are a lawyer Wix...am I right?

*Humor break....What is the most difficult course in the funeral director's training?  The one where they learn to appear somber, sad, concerned and dignified while the deceased relative is handing over a check for $23,000!

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Arch that is really low...
Date:	4/30/2016 1:30:06 PM

Calling an intelligent human being a lawyer is almost as bad as calling someone a dimokrap!!