Name:	tacosman -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/27/2018 2:42:09 PM

Hopefully this is the right forum for this question.

Im looking to buy a second home/vacation home.  Birmingham area resident so I would like for it to be on the alexander city side of things as opposed to farther east. 

My budget is going to be up to 700k or so.  Maybe a touch more. 

In looking at things, i really liked a lot of the smaller new construction homes in the russelllands(sp?) neighborhoods, but those were starting at around 900k.  The lots I liked were affordable(275-325kish for what would be acceptable), but the build cost for the approved builders were pretty high(over 275 per sq ft for build only).  I guess they underprice the lots and overprice the builds...doesnt really matter since it's a package deal I guess.  Dont want to spend 900k+. 

Is there an area or type I should be looking at on lake martin, or do I just need to forget it and consider Logan Martin instead?

What I'd like:

-fairly new construction, or at least something that looks nice and modern inside(if not I would need to remodel it and that would have to be in the budget)

-decent curb appeal

-not very big.  I don't want 3000k sq ft.  1800-2200 would actually be ideal.

-has to have decent amount of waterfront where I don't feel like the other houses are right on top of me.  Preferrably at least 140-150+ ft or so. 

-don't want a canal or small cove view.  It doesn't have to be a water for miles/point view(I know thats not going to be possible), but want at least something of a big water/deep water feel.  I guess thats what everyone wants

-would prefer nice dock already in place(if not would have to be in budget for this)

thanks...

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/27/2018 8:01:23 PM

Talk to some realtors, lay out what you have said here about what you want and let them give you some advice and talk to you about what is available.  

Name:	LSUboy -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/28/2018 10:10:36 AM

Contact Rhonda Jaye at Lake Martin Realty.  She is great.

Name:	George -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/28/2018 11:24:36 AM

There may be a few lots left at Cedar Point.  Contact Damon Storey with Lake Martin Realty. 

http://www.lakemartinrealty.com/agents/54/damon-story/

Name:	boataholic -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/28/2018 11:39:58 PM

Your choices will be few at 700K for brand new, but much more numerous if you are willing to take the time to redo an existing property. Parker Creek area is probably your best bet.  Make the lot your top priority, the house just has to be not too weird to modify.  At 1800-2000 sq ft, if you aren't looking for high end finishes, you can burn down the house and start from scratch.  But you may end up with the most expensive house in the area. 

Name:	jlindley -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 10:19:47 AM

I have a house that might interest you.Not listed with an agent yet.On Manoy creek.Meets your criteria.Post back and we can talk.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 11:27:35 AM

One thing to do for some idea of what the market is like is look at zillow.com and trulia.com.  I have owned a house at Lake Martin for 15 years but I look at both sites on a regular basis to keep track on the market.  My hope when I retire is to upgrade from my current house to another and knowing the market well will allow me to jump on a good opportunity when I see it.  Seems to me from my long-term viewing that you can find what you are looking for if you are patient.  Am surprised about the $250 psf cost of new construction.  That has to include some pretty upgraded finishes because I would have expected it to be closer to $150 to $175 psf range.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 3:07:42 PM

no offense but Zillow and Trulia (along with realtor.com) are the worst sites to use if you want to follow the Lake Martin Market. Their data is terribly outdated and inaccurate in almost every city in America, but especially for a rural second home market like Lake Martin. The facts speak for themselves. See:

http://lakemartinvoice.com/2017/01/25/yet-another-zillow-fail-at-lake-martin/

If you don't want to use a local agent's site, then I would suggest you at least use the Lake Martin Area Association of Realtors' site at http://lmaar.org/ - it won't have any agent branding on there.

As a local agent that only works with waterfront on the lake, I'd be happy to give you some free, "no strings attatched" advice.

Name:	GC -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 4:24:48 PM

Actually, the real island area is closest to Montgomery.  There are quite a few shacks on great properties that are available.  Probably best to get in a boat and putt around looking at signs.  

Just make sure the property is deeded and not a lease to the power company.  Good luck.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 4:55:36 PM

All I do is use them to easily see homes for sale and what they are listed for and to look at the details to get a rough idea of the market.  I agree that using a realtor website connected to MLS is the only way to go if you are actually looking.  I am not and find both those sites useful for general market conditions and much easier to use. 

I am curious, if a home is listed on one of them for a price is that number wrong?  If so, then these sites are more than worthless.  I do know that they do have the correct information on the date and sales price of the homes I have bought but don't take their estimates of home values seriously.  But since I am not actively looking I haven't gone to the actual listing to compare what is on zillow or trulia.  Do they accurately reflect the offering price of homes?

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 6:01:18 PM (updated 1/29/2018 11:24:14 PM)

First, you have to understand that ZTR (Zillow, Trulia, and Realtor.com) and sites like them, are merely aggregators. That is, they simply gather info from the hundreds of MLSs around the country to populate pages on their website. They are very careful to, in the fine print at the bottom of each page, claim no accuracy whatsoever and squarely put the onus of accuracy on the MLSs from which they get the data. 

Secondly, their goal is to dominate google searches by consumers. For that, you need lots of pages. You need info. And you need people clicking on your site so that google can think they are helpful. The more pages they have, the more people click. The more people click, the higher that google puts them in search results, assuming that the pages are helpful. The higher the pages are in search results, the more people click. and on, and on, and on. Yes, it's a circular calculation.

Thirdly, where do they get their money? Aggregators get 99.9% of their money from agents - telling them that they have to advertise on their site in order to get leads. Basically they call and email and pressure agents to advertise so that they can be featured to be the "awesome agent" in that area, which has nothting to do with actual performance or feedback and everything to do with how much money you spend to advertise with them. So get this- if I have a listing in the local lake mls - and it gets uploaded to ZTR - If I am not in the top awesome agent list, my contact info is not on the listing on ZTR. You have to look really really hard at the fine print to figure out who is really the listing agent. 

To answer your question, most of the time the homes are not for sale and they're giving you an "estimate" on the price. But if it is really listed, the way to tell is to scroll down on the bottom and see if it says something like "info provided by X realty." Then that means it's for sale and there is a marginal chance that the price is right. I say marginal because usually it takes a really long time for any price changes etc to go through and make it to ZTR. 

Another common question- if the Lake Martin MLS doesn't upload to ZTR, then how are some lake martin listing showing up there? Answer- some local companies that are national franchises have collective agreements with ZTR to upload MLS data. So it's not coming from the MLS, it's coming from the local lake martin franchise, up to their corporate database, then up to ZTR. 

I don't participate (right now) in sites like ZTR because I don't see the sense in providing them the most valuable thing in real estate (listing info) for free, and then allowing them to charge me a ransom for the privelege to outbid other agents to advertise on the data that I gave them for free. Maybe one day ZTR will contribute to the process, will give actual value to consumers. Then I will hop on. But now it doesn't and I don't.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 6:02:39 PM

IMHO you find what you are looking for easily if you stay out of Russe) developments. I live in Manoy Creek and know you you get basically what you want with that 700k budget. Probably in Sandy's or Blue Creeks. It depends primarily if you want love in development your gonna pay more.

Name:	TBrown05 -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/29/2018 6:38:18 PM

Some things to think about:

- the areas closest to Bham are Parker Creek, Oakachoy Creek, and Manoy;in particular, Parker and Oakachoy, off Hwy 20; Hwy 24 to the "other side" of Parker Creek and to Real Island is good bit further

- Coosa Co. is very rural so any "night life" (ie going out to dinner, etc) during the off season is quite a drive (10 miles or so to Alex City); when the water is up though, there's plenty to do within a short boat ride; the "Dadeville side" has lots more to offer during the off season

- the northwest part of the lake isn't as populated so riding in the boat on the weekend is still comfortable; the closer you get to Chimney Rock/The Ridge, Blue, Manoy, and Sandy Creeks, the crazier it gets on the weekends (no offense); many years ago, we stopped going to that area on weekends in either our Ski Nautique or 20' pontoon. Just too rough.

- however, the northeast area of the lake is being built out at a pretty good pace, especially with all of Russell's properties

-perhaps you know something of Logan Martin that I don't but I've never thought there was much comparison; Martin has clearer and deeper water& more topography that makes for some great scenery and cool coves; admittedly, I'm prejudiced though!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Another interesting thing about Zillow
Date:	1/29/2018 9:33:13 PM

If you disagree with their "Zestimate", you must provide them with an professional appraiser.  I looked into this because I strongly disagree with the zestimate on my house.  I'm not wanting to sell my house right now, so I didn't bother.  But I think it paints the wrong picture of what prices run on the lake.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	Another interesting thing about Zillow
Date:	1/29/2018 11:27:10 PM

that's an excellent example. It's Zillow saying, "we know we are wrong but in order for us to change it you have to spend $500 on an appraisal to give us good info." Your are guilty until you spend money to prove you are innocent, so to speak.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Another interesting thing about Zillow
Date:	1/30/2018 9:05:56 AM

That is why I don't look at their home valuations.  I simply use it to look at homes for sale, how they are priced and what you would get.  However, if the details on your home are wrong you can change them for free.  I did this for my son's home because it was missing the information from an addition that was built onto the back of the house that added a master bedroom and full bath.  Made those changes and the valuation changed as well. 

It would be interesting to see if their estimate of value is always high, always low or a mixed bag.  I hope the estimate for my son's home is correct as it has appreciated in value by 20% in four years but I am skeptical.  The vauation on my primary residence is consistent with the asking price of comparable homes in our neighborhood but again, it does not take into account the improvements we made to the basement where we added an in-law suite, wine cellar, bar and large family room.  Not sure how much that should add to the value of the home but the estimate shows an increased value of 37% since we bought it in 2003.

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/30/2018 9:22:22 AM (updated 1/30/2018 9:26:19 AM)

notoriously inaccurate//out of date//i would never recommend using Zillow//Trulia as an indicator of value, etc.

consider this: has the tax assessor ever been INSIDE your house ? they have no idea of the finish, upgrades, etc--same with ZILLOW

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	1/30/2018 10:41:04 AM

My question for John was whether the asking price of homes on Zillow or Trulia are accurate.  Still haven't heard back on that one.  If those numbers are accurate then my view is that these sites are OK to check on the current market (which homes are for sale and for how much).  Other than that, I agree they are unreliable for valuation of a specific home.  And if they do not accurately reflect the asking price of homes then they are totally worthless........but I don't know whether this is the case.  Hopefully John will weigh in on that aspect of these sites.

Name:	Samdog -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/30/2018 11:32:27 AM

As a realtor professional you are spot-on with advice these sites. The main problem with them is they don't have acces to "sold" values only tax records and estimates.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	1/30/2018 12:20:18 PM

Not sure about others but Zillow has the sales price of each of the three homes I have bought in the last 15 years, including the date of the sale.  Maybe I am lucky but their number is dead on.  Not sure where they got the info.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	1/31/2018 9:06:08 AM (updated 1/31/2018 9:12:30 AM)

Martini- Sorry, I thought I answered that earlier. Is your question "While we all agree they are innacurate on each home, are they accurate in general to track pricing trends?" no. Not at all.

The first reason is the classic argument of going from the lesser to the greater. If we all agree that they are terrible at pricing homes individually, then how can they get trends correct? if their underlying data (specific home values) is off, then how much more will their overall trend be off? It's like a carpenter that is not good at measuring small lengths with his tape measure - and then hoping that the whole house in general will be square.

Another reason is that ZTR can't differentiate between waterfront and non waterfront. Now, they might have a field on their page that says "Waterfront: Yes" but they are not using it to affect price or trend. Meaning, it would try and apply the same trends to a wf house in Trillium to a manufactured home off of Cotton Road in Eclectic, just because they might be 3/4 of a mile away from each other as the crow flies. Related question- what if some Silicon Valley nerd figures out a magic formula to take waterfront in to account? My answer- so they will be able to tell you how good the view is from this home versus that? That these neighbors party a lot and this one does not? That the trees on this lot give a lot of privacy? Etc.

Another big reason is that Alabama does not record sale prices of real estate in their county tax information in a way that gets uploaded. This might change in the future, but right now the aggregators like ZTR (Zillow, Truila, and Realtor.com and their ilk), cannot track sold price trends. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	1/31/2018 9:59:47 AM

John:  Here is a very simple question.  When I go on Zillow and search for homes for sale in area code 36861 a map pops up with a bunch of red dots.  When I click on the red dot it pulls up a home for sale with an asking price, pictures, basic description.  Are those accurate?

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	1/31/2018 10:57:12 AM

the problem is that there is no simple answer. Zilow INTENTIONALLY makes it hard to discern because THEY DON'T CARE. Their goal IS NOT TO BE ACCURATE. Their goal is to have lots of pages on their site so that people come to it and they can use traffic to sell ads to agents. Once you understand that, the rest of it makes sense.

see my answer from earlier:

"To answer your question, most of the time the homes are not for sale and they're giving you an "estimate" on the price. But if it is really listed, the way to tell is to scroll down on the bottom and see if it says something like "info provided by X realty." Then that means it's for sale and there is a marginal chance that the price is right. I say marginal because usually it takes a really long time for any price changes etc to go through and make it to ZTR. "

To respond to your red dot question: just because they are showing a red dot doesn't necessarily mean it is for sale. a dot can mean lots of things like

1) it is actually active for sale

2) it was active for sale like three months ago but now it's sold and Zillow has not updated it correctly

3) it was active for sale like three years ago but the seller took it off the market and ZTR has not updated it correctly

4) it was never for sale and they just have a tax record on it and so they put it on their site. scroll down to see if it says "info provided by X realty." if not, then it definitely is not for sale

I've had consumers call me up asking about something that looks active that actually sold SEVEN YEARS AGO.

I could spend hours and hours giving reasons and examples why ZTR is a waste of time. Fake news. 

It's like opening up an issue of the Enquirer and having to go line by line and story by story explaining why it's all wrong. Once you go through an article or two and realize it's fake news, why waste your time any longer?  The Enquirer's goal is not to be accurate. It's to sell newspapers. At a certain point it's not worth going through every article to discern accuracy. You know it's fake news, and that is that.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	1/31/2018 12:50:11 PM

Not to belabor this because I get all your objections.  I understand how objectionable these sites are with regard to how they treat realtors. I understand that the individual realtors do all the work to prepare their listings and these websites take this information and use it.  

But I randomly picked 10 homes on Lake Martin listed on Zillow as being for sale.  I then went to your website and searched for each of those homes.  They were all listed as being for sale on your website and the price shown on Zillow and your website were exactly the same.  Not one of them was listed for sale on Zillow but not on your website.  All of the asking prices were the same.  All of the pictures and descriptions were the same.  Then I randomly picked 10 homes listed for sale on your website and checked them on zillow.  Same result.

Maybe I just got lucky but it seems to me that the information on the zillow website is exactly the same as I got off yours.  Other than all the very reasonable objections you have, it seems that inaccuracy is not a valid one.  As I stated previously, I use zillow for a running snapshot of the market and it seems perfectly suited to this.  If I were to sell my house I would get a realtor to do a proper estimate of the asking price and to manage the listing.  Likewise if I were buying I would engage a seller's agent to help me narrow down the market to fit my needs and arrange tours. But it seems to me your contention that zillow is worthless and has no merit as a means to easily watch a market isn't supported by what I did.

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	1/31/2018 8:24:29 PM (updated 1/31/2018 8:30:27 PM)

I started to type out a long response yet again, but, I edited down to this: To each his / her own, have fun.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	2/1/2018 12:44:06 PM

Considering what Zillow says about the value of my house here on the lake, I'll leave them.  My biggest fear is that if/when I sell, that prespecitve buyers will check Zillow and really low ball any offers.  Right now they have it valued for about $200,000 LESS than I paid 10 years ago to build it.  

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Need help from John C on this
Date:	2/1/2018 2:11:05 PM

Yeah, I would never look at their valuations.  I only use it to quickly see what is for sale in the market and at what price.  That info seems to be derived from the same source as realtors.  Otherwise, a competent appraiser or a real estate agent with knowledge of the market is the way to figure out what a house is worth.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	HEY MARTINI
Date:	2/2/2018 11:08:14 AM

Here is a house I have been following on the listing realtors website. There was a price reduction Jan 31. Here is Zillow today....

 FOR SALE 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	HEY MARTINI
Date:	2/4/2018 11:51:58 AM

Interesting.  I know why realtors trash zillow and trulia but it seems to me if all you use it for is to track home for sale prices it is useful.  I did a google search about this issue and it was filled with realtors trashing them for all the same reasons John does.  My sense is that many of the criticisms are fair except the one about the listing price.  I would never use their valuations as they are not accurate, even if I like them.

Name:	tacosman -	Reply
Subject:	HEY MARTINI
Date:	2/4/2018 2:10:47 PM

What would be a lot better than looking at the listing prices through ztr is the recently sold home prices.  I say that because right now there are a ton of older lake homes in the 550-700k range that have been on the market for literally forever and are way overpriced. If you go to the recently sold homes you'll see that some of the houses listed for like 650 actually sold for 540 or whatever......if one is going by the list price on some of these homes that have been listed forever they will get an inflated picture of what the actual market is in many cases.

Name:	Little Gray -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	2/5/2018 10:04:27 AM

My husband and I closed on a Lake Martin House March 31, 2012...almost 6 years ago! We did not know ANY Lake Martin Realtors nor did we know anyone to offer a reference. So, I started looking around on the web. I discovered Lake Martin Voice.com... John Coley (334) 221-5862.  I was impressed with his writing style and the vast amount of information on his web site. It turned out to be an excellent choice! Contact John...he will set you up with a system that will address all your issues! We found exactly the property we had in mind, with quite a bit less (about half) than your stated budget! We bought a FANTASTIC, flat, point lot with an almost ocean-like view, with a pretty decent boathouse, wooden seawall, and a very small, old house in need of repair situated on it.  We've done a few minor repairs inside the home (enough to make it safe) with the intent of razing it and building a nice house in the next year or so AND in the meantime, we've been able to enjoy our lake property with family, friends and the wonderful new friends we have made at the lake, mostly our neighbors!

We too looked at Logan Martin and Lay lakes but decided that there was simply no comparison to the quality of Lake Martin and surprisingly, the difference in price was negligible. Stick with Lake Martin and call John Coley...you will not be disappointed with either and hopefully soon, we can welcome you to the Lake Martin family! Good Luck!

Name:	John C -	Reply
Subject:	possibilities within budget on lake martin...
Date:	2/5/2018 3:28:25 PM

(blushing) - thank you so much for the kinds words!!!!!

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Great suggestion
Date:	2/5/2018 4:11:40 PM (updated 2/5/2018 4:12:55 PM)

Found that on the website.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	In my opinion
Date:	2/5/2018 9:30:11 PM

A lot of time, when a house is overpriced (and doesn't sell), it is because of the realtor wanting to please the seller (or the seller demands a price).  People mistakenly think that if they list the property higher than it is worth, that they will either sell it at that price, or they will have room to negotiate.  When in fact, the house will just sit.  The question to ask a realtor is not "what is my house worth" or "what do you think we should list it for?", when the correct question is ask your realtor, "what do you think it will sell for, in this market".  I'm not putting down realtors at all, but sellers need to ask the right questions.  An appropriately priced house will sell.