Name:	DVan1901 -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/19/2017 10:30:59 PM

I know there are a lot of DIY'ers out there, but you should be sure to check things on your dock like proper eleictical lines. Here is a link to an article about two women that died in lake Tusculloosa last weekend and they suspect electric shock drowning.

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2017/04/2_lawyers_found_dead_in_lake_t.html

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 8:54:04 AM

A ground fault breaker measures the current leaving it and coming back.

If there is a difference in that current, it shuts off.

The theory is -  when someone gets shocked, the current goes from the outlet, through the person and to ground.

The ground fault outlet can detect this imbalance and save lives.

The TEST button basically introduces an electrically equivalent person to the outlet. (A simulated shock)

The RESET button restores power after a trip event.

Put them in the bathroom, kitchen, outdoors and definately on the dock.  You can get them in a circuit breaker.

One ground fault outlet can make all the rest of the daisy chained outlets safe I think.

If you are swimming and you feel a strange pins and needles (much like an asleep leg) feeling close to your body, swim away from it and get the kids out of the water.  Try to close your hands.

Electrocution occurs when a swimmer grabs electrically hot/charged metal.  The shock tightens your muscles.

You can't let go.

Name:	Rooster -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 9:22:18 AM

Electrical box at dock half full of water.

Name:	Samdog -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 9:45:19 AM

So the fault was upline prior to a GFI outlet? So I guess a GFI breaker in the subpanel might have saved them or is it a case of the hot wire being in contact with the lake?

Name:	Rooster -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 10:14:15 AM

Whole story on MSN.com

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 10:49:18 AM

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dad-warns-about-electric-shock-drowning-after-teens-death/ar-BBA3hg4?li=BBnbfcL

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 12:11:53 PM

Before last summer i installed a pull out switch on line and shut off power when folks swimming.  This year i disconnected all lines on pier.  Nine grandkids deserve every precaution i can take.

So the line runs alongside dry side of sea wall to garDen shed.  Do you think i have issues with that setup?

Name:	GC -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 2:53:56 PM

So I can get a ground fault breaker for the line running to the pier?  Replace the breaker in the panel will work?  Just recently had a chipmunk chew thru that wire so I worry that the best of precautions will not work.  If I can replace the breaker on that line, I'll do today!

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 3:58:29 PM

I assume everyone at least runs the wire through PVC pipe beteween  breaker box and outlet. Underground at least 18 inches. Do NOT use NM indoor wiring.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 4:09:29 PM

  Yes you can put the GFCI breaker in or replace any of the outlets on the curcuit and will protect the whole curcuit. The breaker runs about $60 and the outlet runs about 15.Dont do bother however. It only takes one of either.

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 4:25:24 PM (updated 4/20/2017 4:27:16 PM)

"replace any of the outlets on the curcuit and will protect the whole curcuit. " Only the outlets downstream from a GF outlet are protected.Outlets between the circuit box and the GF oulet are not protected. I have always installed the GR outlet as the first outlet on that circuit so all outlets are protected and I knew all were protected.

Now, if you install a GF circuit breaker than all outlets on that curcuit are protected.

I am NOT an electrician but this is my understanding from reading over the years and installig some GF outlets. I have never used a GF breaker....never thought of it.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 4:54:35 PM

Which is most effective?  60 not too much to spend for safety.  Also my garden hot wire is on the line.  Will the safety receptacles trip because of its operation?

Name:	Mack -	Reply
Subject:	LNG
Date:	4/20/2017 5:32:18 PM

 Susceptible to lightning hit. Mine runs the same way, behind sea wall. Lightning zapped two low voltage transformers before I tried an arrestor outlet. Suggest a GRI at breaker at box end of cable run.

Name:	LakeMartinLife -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 5:35:19 PM

About a week or two ago I had an electrician out as I learned my outlet on the dock wasnt GFI.  I told him I wanted safe as possible for anything near water.  He changed out the breakers to GFI.  The outlet is still the same but according to him now protected bc of the new breaker. 

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	What say you Hodja
Date:	4/20/2017 6:11:40 PM

  It is technically GFCI which is curcuit interrupt. My understanding is either one protects the entire circuit. As Hodja posted it trips on change of voltage and interrupt it anywhere and the voltage changes everywhere. I am curious to see what Hodja says. He seems to have a good grasp on the subject. So does shortcut so maybe one of them will enlighten us.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	What say you Hodja
Date:	4/20/2017 6:56:44 PM

First, I am not an expert but have studied the situation fairly closely.  A GFCI BREAKER at the service panel should protect anything down that line.  In my case I dug a trench and ran UF cable underground (at least 18 inches) from an unprotected circuit under a corner of the cabin to a night light near the waterfront on a post.  From 12 inches underground at the light post the UF cable is encased in pvc to the GFCI outlet.  I used a waterproof outlet box, and from the GFCI receptacle PROTECTED SIDE ran two lines, one, encased in pvc to the light, the other via UF through PVC pipe to an outlet on the dock.  BTW, UF stands for underground feeder and is cleared for buried or overhead use without the protection of metallic or non metallic conduit.  Cable rated NM-B SHOULD NEVER be used in either such case.  It is for interior use or under a house where there is no threat of it getting wet.

My curiosity about GFCI was aroused when we moved into our present house in Montgomery and experienced outlet outages in the master bath during exceptionally heavy rains.  Found that to restore service we had to reset the GFCI outlet IN THE GARAGE.

If there are any real electricians out there I would be curious to know that, even though the link from the house to the light post is IAW code, would it be better to move the GFCI box to the point that the circuit leaves the house?

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Electric Shock Drowning
Date:	4/20/2017 7:06:13 PM

Is is a straight shot (no connections) using UF cable?  I would still install GFCI protection to guard against the unexpected.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	What say you Hodja
Date:	4/20/2017 8:18:16 PM

  I've been told by a couple of journal electricians that you shouldn't use a GFCI breaker and a GFCI outlet on the same line and not to use more than one GFCI outlet on a curcuit. It is an either or situation. If you go the outlet route one will protect the entire curcuit, no matter where it is located. As I stated earlier I used an outlet by the water so if it trips I don't have to go back to the house to reset it. I can't remember the details about not using bath a breaker and an outlet but it boiled down to they compete with each other or cancel one another or some such. Its one of those situations where I don't have to understand it, I just have to accept it. I'm curious to what an electrician says also.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	What say you Hodja
Date:	4/20/2017 9:46:41 PM

Wasn't suggesting use of both, just that maybe the GFCI farther upstream might be advisable.  That being said, the combination of UF properly buried and encased in pvc as it comes out of the ground seems to be a low risk method.

Just for S and Gs I might plug in a cord on the dock outlet that has two bare leads on the end and put those two leads into the water (NO SWIMMERS!) to see if the GFCI outlet performs as expected.  If it doesn't I may be harvesting dead fish (and summarily shutting down that outlet).

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	HEY LIFER
Date:	4/20/2017 10:31:01 PM

"If you go the outlet route one will protect the entire curcuit, no matter where it is located." You are WRONG….If the GCFI is installed properly…ONLY the downstream outlets are protected.

I will bet you $100 to charity depending on who is correct.

Name the licensed electrician and post his answer to the following: If a GFCI outlet is properly installed in the middle of a run, are all circuits GFCI protected or just those downstream from the GFCI?

The charity for the $100 donation is Children's Harbor.

You willing??????

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	HEY LIFER
Date:	4/20/2017 11:00:27 PM

You didn't ask me but I am convinced that protection is provided to the GFCI outlet itself and anything connected to the downwind side....I am in a hotel in Marion, Arkansas and thus somewhat challenged to look at one and give the proper name for that side of the outlet...but anything between the service panel and the GFCI outlet is NOT protected.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	HEY LIFER
Date:	4/20/2017 11:51:51 PM

I learned early in life not to bet on another man's game. Obviously you have researched the answer already. I haven't, ever. I was going on what I have been told by two different electricians. Maybe they were wrong. I didn't claim to be an expert, just repeating info I have received. Or maybe I am remembering wrong. It has been years since I had those discussions. It has never been an issue when I wired a GFCI curcuit because I make them dedicated lines with one outlet only, because they have been outdoor. I've only used GFCI breakers when it is an indoor curcuit so it is a non-issue..

  So I concede you win so therefore you get to donate to my favorite charity. That would be me, so mail me a check! On second thought make that a money order

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	HEY Hodja
Date:	4/21/2017 12:24:37 AM

We do agree on something. Maybe, there is still hope. It is important issue if someone has circuits near water that are between the GFCI outlet and the breaker box and think they have CGFI portection. It can kill ya...

Name:	alatraveler50 -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Adding my two and a half cents
Date:	4/21/2017 10:45:58 AM

Sounds as if there may be a few folks headed to Home Depot this weekend to replace dock receptacles.  I'm not an electrican!  I did sell electrical materials for 30 yrs. 

GFCI recptacles only provide protection 'below' the recpt not back to your panel.  One big caution on recpts, there are two sets of screws.  One for incoming power and to provide proctection to another 'non-GFCI'/regular recpt.  The other set of screws provide NON-protected power.  These screws have a sticker covering them.  I have a situation where I have power coming to my GFCI recept then I use the non- protected side to power a light switch.  Light switches will sometimes trip the GFCI if it's on the protected side.

Someone posted that he had installed his recpts with the ground hole "up".  This is how I learned and yet so many electricans install them down.  Looks like a face.  If you have the ground up and go to pull a cord out, the last prong to come out of the recpt is the ground; safer than either of the power prongs coming out last.

If you can, maybe on your next dock refurbish or when the water is down, install a small subpanel or as least a double-pole switch that is large enough to be able to kill power beyond that point for the entire dock.

I prefer using PVC (grey) conduit to UF on my dock.  UF cable is tough and is easy to run and you don't have to pull wire thru it but PVC just adds so much more mechanical protection.  Pulling UF in PVC is pretty much the ultimate without going to steel conduit, which can create another whole set of problems.

If anyone is going to be working on the power on their docks -- "Turn off the breaker before you begin"

Name:	Osms -	Reply
Subject:	Another recommendation
Date:	4/21/2017 11:05:48 AM

A very important thing I learned from having a dock on the coast is mount ALL junction boxes well above dock level.  Storms on the Gulf coast have high tides that will get over the docks, and I'm not talking of just hurricanes.  We mounted all outlets and junction boxes about waist high, and it makes sense to do something similar on lake docks where splashes and wake from boats can cause shorts.  I believe the women who were electrocuted were on an aluminum floating dock, which has extra problems.  Also, wiring on docks and aluminum docks should have their own grounding rod, just to be extra careful.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Adding my two and a half cents
Date:	4/21/2017 3:05:05 PM

  I called my electrician friend and ask him about outlet placement and he told me it had to be the first on the curcuit to protect the whole curcuit. I ask him if he told me different before. He ask me if I was high or just stupid... Lol. Apparently just like plumbers know that Sh!t don't run uphill, electric Tricia s know electricity don't run backwards. So after a couple of good laughs at my expense and catching up on the latest gossiping was decided since I'm not high I must be stupid. Not sure how I got confused on the issue but obviously I was.

Name:	Lake Martin Dock Company -	Reply
Subject:	Check your docks - Adding my two and a half cents
Date:	4/24/2017 9:55:49 AM

  This is a great discussion, and helpful to everyone.   In addition to everything else, there are also alarms ( Dock LifeGuard )you can install on your dock to alert you of the presence of electricity as well.  Although they are not inexpensive, many people feel better knowing.  

  As some have mentioned, there have been examples of irrigation systems as the root cause, etc.  Not always the obvious ones.

Stay safe and keep our beautiful lake clean

David McGirt
Lake Martin Dock Company