| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Government Involvement
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Date:
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8/3/2009 12:00:55 AM
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Hi all,
-Hopefully you will be able to use below url link, or paste it into your browser and get to it.
-This is a great example of what happens when the government gets too involved in our daily lives. We thought the Patriot Act had some problems; in many ways this kind of stuff goes even further.
-Federal government money has provided inroads for federal control of state organizations and activities: e.g., federal money for schools and universites, federal money for roads, federal monies for medicade, etc. Sometimes that involvement has good results, but in many cases it has bad results.
-Now here is an example of federal money coming to the individual (cash for clunkers), but with strings attached.
-Is this an example of federal malice or stupidity? Is it a one-time happening, or can we expect more of this with the federal government getting more involved with the auto industry, banking industry, health care, etc? I don't know. But hopefully, without sounding too conspiratorial, citizens just say we are not going to stand for this stuff.
-anyway, I thought it was something that you on this forum would be interested in.
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqfuZ7hiap0
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You must be Kidding
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Date:
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8/3/2009 7:04:48 AM
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Glenn Beck and Fox News -- everything is a vast left wing government conspiracy -- give me a break.
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| Name: |
lotowner
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| Subject: |
You must be Kidding
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Date:
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8/3/2009 7:33:29 AM
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How can you make this statement without going to this website. I just did and it is scary. Fox News is watched by a lot of intelligent Americans who have the capacity to filter our information they judge to be erroneous.
This is the classic liberal attempt to make a statement that has no merit. Give specifics when you disagree rather that the usual defense that Fox News and its staff are biased. Then, more of us might consider your responses to be valid.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
You must be Kidding
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Date:
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8/3/2009 7:40:14 AM
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Indeed Beck went to far with it.
But answer this question: Did the Government go too far?
I work in the computer security business and know why there is a legal warning banner required on all GOVERNMENT computer systems. The first is very simple. It allows the Government the legal means to go after someone who misuses or abuses (i.e., an unauthorized user who hacks) the Government computer system. In the past, court cases have been thrown out because the miscreant was not told and was forced to affirm explicitly that it was an official Government system.
Next, the Government must warn users of the Government system that they are subject to monitoring while using the system. This is to identify abuse and misuse by AUTHORIZED users, and you can't monitor unless you inform them in advance that you will do so.
To say that the user's computer system magically BELONGS to the Government just because that user happens to be logged on to the CARS web site is preposterous.
And that the information might be given to FOREIGN entities?? Whoa.
My two cents worth from Charleston. Understand we got another good rain at the lake yesterday. I know I drove through about 30 miles of pure deluge on I-85 between Fungummery and Auburn yesterday afternoon.
Cheers,
NH
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You can have your view on GB, but the information is there in Black and White. He did not write it ... the Obama administration did. As was pointed out ... the dems screamed about the pattriot act that was directed to suspected terrorist ... but this is the federal government saying by using the Cars system they can look at any file on your computer. If that is not the intent .... why say it.
This administration scares me beyond belief.
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But who says it's true? Some talking head on GB's show?
I periodically watch Fox news just to see what is being said, and IMO they gloat and glorify any tidbit of information that they can twist just to make the Administration look bad. To me, that's just as bad as of the garbage that Keith Oberman, Chris Matthew or Bill O'Reilly puts forth.
My frustration here is that some people just consistently post and link to anything that supports their world view that the Obama Administration is inherently evil and intends to take over your life. What ever happened to the three source rule?
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I had no problem with the Patriot Act.
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I am glad you did not have a problem with the patriot act ... that was intended and used for national security. I am willing to give government more freedom and give up some privacy to keep us safe from terrorists.
As for who's to say it is true ... it is there in black and white on the web site. I think your question is if it is intended the way GB has pointed out. I do not know. But it says what it does and certainly give government the ability legally to do exactly what he has pointed out when you accept the terms. If that is not the intent, then the language should be more clear or not be so strong.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
READ IT READ IT
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Date:
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8/3/2009 10:56:28 AM
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Beck is on the DEALER section of the website? The government will need access to the files on the DEALERSHIP's computer to verify that the transaction does indeed qualify for the rebates. Dealers have been know to play games and this appears indended to keep them honest. They don't seem to mind as I have not read of any refusing to participate in the program. The RIGHT is so desperate. Only one who makes sense is Hodja.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the average citizen's computer.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Wrong as usual
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Date:
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8/3/2009 11:06:34 AM
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Go there yourself. Take your head out of your backside and look at what is happening to this country. You refuse to even say what you think Obama is doing that you think is the right policy and where you think it is going to take us. All you do is post quotes from others and bash anyone that does not agree with your liberal thinking.
As I have said ... if you want Obama to control your choices, take away your freedom so you do not have to think for yourself ... that is fine if you think that is right and what you want. But for those of us that enjoy our freedom, do not want government in our lives any more than necessary, then we think the direction is totally wrong.
The latest on the sunday talk shows seems to be once BO socializes healthcare for all will be to attack pensions and 401K's with government control. That will be his solution to fixing social security. Have the government run pension plans and 401K and they will decide how much everyone gets, so people that have not worked and saved for retirement are taken care of as well ... not to mention all the illegals in the country ... just like they will get healthcare at tax payers expense ... lets give them a retirement fund too.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I'm disappointed
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Date:
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8/3/2009 5:41:08 PM
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Yankee your posts have usually been among of the few on this forum that are not off the wingnut wall crazy. Now you post with a link to Glen Beck plus Jonah Goldberg both of whom are absolute lunatics. Please come back on the forum and tell us your computer was hijacked by WW but that you have now regained control.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I'm disappointed and BTW
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Date:
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8/3/2009 5:47:13 PM
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GF is exactly right in his assessment and it has been verified on several unbiased websites.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Simple Question(s)
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Date:
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8/3/2009 7:13:30 PM
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1) Do you agree that by entering the CARS web site the Government OWNS your computer (and thus any private information that might be on it)?
2) Do you think that our Government should share ANY information posted onto the CARS web site from your personal computer with a FOREIGN entity?
Minimum acceptable answer in both cases is a flat yes or no. If you want to expand on the yes or no answers, feel free to do so but answer the questions, yes or no.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Au contraire
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Date:
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8/3/2009 7:21:46 PM
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To say that the govvies can determine if a deal is legit by looking into the dealer's computer matches the proverbial three Fs -- folklore, fiction, and fantasy.
Your explanation holds water about as well a a sieve. Any dealer looking to exploit and misuse the system would surely cover their tracks.
And beside that, to say the Government OWNS a computer accessing one of its web sites is PREPOSTEROUS (did you get it this time?)
Nasreddin Hodja.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Has Anybody Gone There?
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Date:
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8/3/2009 7:44:12 PM
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Has anybody gone to cars.gov and gotten the messages GB refers to? I went to cars.gov and went all over the website and was never asked to agree to the things GB refers to. I wonder if GF is correct, that it is only the DEALERS who have to agree to the "we own your computer while you are on our website" thing? That still may not be a good thing, but it is a far cry from private citizen having to agree to such.
My two cents ...
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Has Anybody Gone There?
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Date:
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8/3/2009 8:28:48 PM
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GF is in fact correct. The info comes up on the gov't website established only for the dealers who are participating in the program. I'm sure some techies, maybe some of our esteemed posters, could get into the site if they are hackers. Now whether the gov't should have such strictures for volunteer dealer participants in a gov't program is a worthy subject for discussion, but the fact remains that (1)they (the dealers) are not forced to participate in the program, and (2) Glen Beck is spreading at best misinformation and at worst outright lies.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
HODJA
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Date:
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8/3/2009 9:08:17 PM
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To answwer your 2 questions,
1 NO
2 NO
If anyone doesn't accept the fact that Glen Beck is a liar, go to the URL that Yankee posted at the beginning of the thread and watch at 1:27 minutes. You will see quite clearly that it says DEALER SUPPORT. Hodja, I beleive your employer has government contracts. I understand the wording that Beck is showing is standard if you do business over the with the government. Can you check with your contract folks?
Once again Beck is a liar and I am shocked that people who call themselves intelligent would be gullible to fall for this lie of his.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
HODJA
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Date:
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8/3/2009 10:17:09 PM
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Somewhere earlier (too lazy to go back and look at whe\re) I discussed why there is a legal notice, what it is for, and what it is NOT for.
I don't give a danm whether it is dealer or individual. For the Government to say they OWN the accessing computer is way overstepping the reason and use of the legal notice.
And I don't really care whether Beck is "lying" or not. Look at my original response, again somewhere up the chain. Beck is an entertainer - but one who hits a little too close to home for liberals. Maybe he goes overboard, but ON BALANCE he makes a lot of sense, which is probably why you choose to cherry pick his statements.
For those of you too lazy to check for yourselves, try the following link (from the National Institute for Standards and Technology, formerly National Bureau of Standards). Show me where any of these suggested banners say the Government OWNS the computer accessing the Government system - and then tell me beck was lying.
URL: http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/fasp/documents/logical_ac/ScreenBanner-Paper.doc.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
HODJA
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Date:
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8/3/2009 10:20:30 PM
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Link didn't work. Maybe this one will
URL: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:sB0QTjpI_8YJ:csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/fasp/documents/logical_ac/ScreenBanner-Paper.doc+legal+warning+banner+on+government+computers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
HODJA
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Date:
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8/3/2009 10:52:12 PM
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Argh. Had a long post omposed and tried to post it but it bombed.
Look at the link below. Nowhere does it say the Government owns anything other than the information and communication between the accessing computer and the Government system.
And this is one of the most complete ones I have seen - and I am "in the business".
Beck should actually be commended - in spite of his histrionics - for calling a spade a spade and letting folks know what the Govvies are doing.
Unfortunately, this is just another example of the Government overstepping its authority and intruding into private citizens' information.
GF and Archie, you should be alarmed. Sooner or later they will come after you too.
And please don't paint me as a conspiracy theorist. Beck just pointed out cold, hard facts.
From the North Charleston Embassy Suites,
Nasreddin Hodja
URL: http://www.navyvamosc.com/webpages/general/warning.htm
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Government Involvement
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Date:
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8/4/2009 12:35:45 AM
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To all above,
-I guess I was right, this issue would be of some interest to this forum
-I was a little taken a back that some thought I was either naive ...or stupid ...to be talking about something that was on Glenn Beck's show. I know that some of you are strong left and others strong right ...and others like me -not particularly one way or the other (please don't take that to mean I go both ways :) ).
-But I thought all of us were able to distinguish between messenger and message, ...or at least would try to distinguish between the messenger and the message. I also hoped that we didn't approach this forum with closed minds. If any of us is a one-sided individual, it would still seem prudent to at least listen to what the other side has to say, ...especially if you want your own argument to be cogent and relavant. I was surprised that some were not so disposed.
- The US Government intell agencies have a fairly useful alpha-numeric system to evaluate the veracity of information. The source/message is rated from A (best) to E (worst) and F (don't know). The information/message is rated from 1(best) to 5 (worst) and 6 (don't know). Thus information from Glenn Beck would seem to be treated by some on this forum as E-5, ...and that's OK. HOwever, I have had many occassins to evaluate information as E-1, ..but to do that I had to first listen/read it.
-Reference his video clip: as Mr. Hodga says --it doesn't matter whether it's an individual or a car dealer. I believe the answer should be NO and NO.
- The point I was trying to make in my original post above was that federal government involvement means many strings attached. People should be aware of that, --again the schools, the roads, the universities, etc. In this case, many car dealers during this recession are facing closure or just getting by, so many are willing to give up their personal control to get government money. Some probably believe they have nno choice. History is replete with instances where people have been willing to give up, often incrementally, their freedom in return for security. Sometimes it's necessary; sometimes not. Which is it now?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
HODJA
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Date:
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8/4/2009 9:07:06 AM
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Beck pointed out "facts" about one thing claiming them to be "facts" about something else. Where I come from the polite folks call that "misleading" and the average guy calls it "lying".
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
HODJA
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Date:
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8/4/2009 11:23:25 AM
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I once saw a plaque on a desk in the Pentagon that simply said "Eschew Obfuscation".
You obfuscate.
The real issue here is not whether Beck was truthful, misleading, or lying.
The issue is your Government overstepping its bounds, just another in a disturbing trend that seems to be dismantling whatever personal freedoms we have left.
I believe GF answered my two questions about the CARS web site warning banner and acceptance page.
How about you??
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
CNN Reported it ....
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Date:
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8/4/2009 11:27:49 AM
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Just so you know ... CNN was all over this story yesterday and saw it again this morning about the government over stepping in terms of their rights for an individual and business to participate in the program.
They reported it that unless a dealership did not agree to the conditions the the government wanted in terms of acess to computer files and sharing the information (basically anything on the computer since once it logs on to the government web site it is considered government property).
This would also apply to individuals that needed to complete and submit information on their car.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
CNN Reported it ....
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Date:
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8/4/2009 11:32:18 AM
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sorry ... dropped part of the sentence ...
Unless the dealership agreed, they were restricted from participating in the program. CNN did interview some dealers that refused to agree to those terms and they are not a cash for clunker dealer. Good for them.
It is the same thing Obama did with Tarp and stimulus dollars ... you take it and we want to control you and have all sorts of rights the government would not have otherwise.
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| Name: |
JustAGuy
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| Subject: |
Simple Question(s)
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Date:
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8/4/2009 12:13:30 PM
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1) Do you agree that by entering the CARS web site the Government OWNS your computer (and thus any private information that might be on it)?
No. But I also don't believe that is necessarily what happens. As I said above, I went all over that website and never was asked to give up ownership of my computer while on the site. I think that is limited, probably to dealers. I don't think dealers should have to agree to this, based on what I've heard so far. And I can't imagine a good reason for it.
2) Do you think that our Government should share ANY information posted onto the CARS web site from your personal computer with a FOREIGN entity?
This one is an easy "No"
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