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Name:	lotowner -	Reply
Subject:	The Infamous Bow by "O"
Date:	4/8/2009 8:32:22 PM

Obama's lack of experience in meeting world leaders is showing. The question of what is his religion still has not been defined. The bow further muddies the water.

Obama Bow to Saudi King Labeled 'Shocking'

In what's been called a "shocking display of fealty to a foreign potentate," President Barack Obama bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia at the Group of 20 summit meeting in London.

"The bow was an extraordinary protocol violation," The Washington Times observed in an editorial on Tuesday.

"Such an act is a traditional obeisance befitting a king's subjects, not his peer. There is no precedent for U.S. presidents bowing to Saudi or any other royals," the editorial said.

Obama offered King Abdullah a deep and prolonged bow from the waist when he met him at the summit, which brought together the leaders of the world’s largest economies on April 2.

The story about Obama’s unusual gesture has gotten scant media coverage in the United States, but a Spanish TV broadcast was picked up on blogs and has created an Internet stir.

"No Americans of any station are required to bow to royalty," the Times stated. "It is one of the pillars of American exceptionalism that our country rejected traditional caste divisions."

The Times editorial also opined that Obama’s bow "to the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques does not help his image with those who believe he is secretly a Muslim, and why he chose to bow only to the Saudi king and not to any other royal remains unexplained."

For instance, Obama did not bow to Queen Elizabeth when he first met her last week in London. Subjects of the crown may bow to the monarch but are not required to do so.

First lady Michelle Obama also broke protocol during the Obamas’ trip abroad when she put her hand on the queen’s back. The move caused a bit of tempest in the British press, but was quelled when the queen put her hand on Michelle in what a Buckingham Palace spokesman described as a "mutual and spontaneous display of affection and appreciation."

Name:	Mulligan -	Reply
Subject:	The Infamous Bow by "O"
Date:	4/8/2009 8:56:18 PM

OK, heeeeeere we go: W also bowed deeply to the Saudi king during a visit many years ago (got alot of coverage with the lib press at the time) and Hillary courtesied (sp?) to the Queen of England back during her husband's term and got scant coverage. I'm to old to fully remember, but I think Jackie B.K.Onassis also did the courtsy thing. For those of you who don't remember: there was a minor skirmish during the late 1770s called THE WAR OF INDEPENDENCE which resulted in ALL of us becoming FREEMEN and FREELADIES; that means TRUE AMERICANS BOW TO NO ONE. I know it's not in fashion to bring up the fact that our forefathers fought, died, and went broke on our collective behalfs, but the fact is, bowing is a gesture of subservience and therefore is about the most un-American thing you can do. It really means we exhibit our freedom by standing tall in the presence of all. Not just our Presidens are expected to stand tall, but all of us. Our Founding Fathers wrote "All Men are Created Equal" for a reason. They did not insert exceptions for Saudis (who didn't exist at the time) and doubledamnedsure did not include an exception for the British monarch. If you don't understand that basic fact of being a American, then pls remain seated during the National Anthem and listen for the sound of our forefathers spinning in their graves.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	You Must be Kidding
Date:	4/9/2009 7:37:31 AM

A trip that is generally regarded as a successful venture on the world stage and the only thing you can focus on is a breech of protocol? So what if he extended an inappropriate courtesy to the King of Saudi? Would you rather he insulted an important Middle East ally?

All of these skeletons that you are attempting to rattle were put to bed months ago. Go check out Snopes.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Problem is
Date:	4/9/2009 9:04:12 AM

The bigger issue is not the bow, but rather the denials of it being one coming from the WH. We have all come to expect lies from anyone who is a politician, but just say that it was either 1. a screwup or 2. a show of respect to an important ally in the war on terror (chuckle, chuckle). Don't pee on my head and comment about rains in the area.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Possibly
Date:	4/9/2009 12:33:18 PM

It was a screw up. Who knows why he did it, and frankly, who really cares? Remember when GWB was photographed holding the hand of the Saudi King when he visited Washington? People just do what they do.

In my view, it's always better to go overboard with courtesy and risk being ridiculed than to offer an insult.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Possibly
Date:	4/9/2009 1:38:35 PM

The problem is that the White House is denying that he bowed. Come on Hound, ask him to "man up" and say something other than "wasn't me, didn't do it, you can't prove it". In the video and capture that I saw, it was clear that he bowed - perhaps we should start "American TASS" to make sure that no pesky facts get out to the American people.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Possibly
Date:	4/9/2009 4:26:27 PM

I don't get the denial. Sounds like a staff issue.
You did notice he bowed slightly to the Queen of England too?

Maybe he's just really respectful of his elders. Both the Queen and the King are old enough to be his grandparents.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Much ado about nothing
Date:	4/9/2009 4:56:46 PM

I guess I have a different take on this. He has absolutely no idea what he is doing which is not surprising given his background and his staff who he hired failed him once again. Believe me, we are going to see a long string of these kind of faux pas over the coming years as it is amateur hour.

What I am much more concerned about is the lack of any discernible value from his European vacation except to apologize for our existence. He has PM's laughing at him as he muffs his reading of the teleprompter, he is lectured by leaders of failed socialist countries warning us not to go down their path, etc. And all the press is worried about is what Michelle wore when she met the Queen or how much Obama is adored by the Europeans. Talk about Nero fiddling while Rome burns......

Name:	water_watcher -	Reply
Subject:	Possibly
Date:	4/9/2009 5:06:00 PM

Hound ... I can't tell if you are joking or not. You are too smart to be serious.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Possibly
Date:	4/9/2009 8:07:46 PM

Well, I'm joking about him being respectful to his elders. Maybe he was really, really grateful for the Rolex watch the Saudi King gave him (joking, but the Saudis do give out Rolex watches).

I don't agree that Obama's trip was a failure. I know you all enjoyed GWB attitude (and God knows he had his share of faux pas) and machismo, but as satisfying as you may have found it, it did not further our interests and make anyone more receptive to our message.
Frankly, I'm not convinced that tough guy or nice guy, the US is going to convice the Europeans on burden sharing in the global economy or in Afghanistan. They have no political will to do so. Although both sides tout our 'special relationship' the fact is that they don't care about the same things we do, and they aren't about to sacrifice their financial relationships for political principle. That hasn't changed, no matter who is in the White House since Reagan and Thatcher.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	OK he definintely bowed
Date:	4/9/2009 10:33:37 PM

I finally saw the clip. What the h*ll was he thinking?

Name:	water_watcher -	Reply
Subject:	OK he definintely bowed
Date:	4/10/2009 6:42:10 AM

You are beautiful ... i love it when you see the light. :)

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY?
Date:	4/10/2009 8:08:09 AM

The world economy is in near ruin, pirates in tiny boats are taking 800' ships on the open seas, the threat of nuclear weapons grows, Earthquake destroys cities in Italy, America's political parties are at complete loggerheads because neither has any responsible leaders left in them, millions in the USA go to bed every night without health insurance and billions throughout the world go to bed hungry each night and this forum fights for three days over whether Obama bowed to a dictator. You people need to get a grip. I'm going to work!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	What Do you think we should do
Date:	4/10/2009 8:31:08 AM

about the pirates?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	You voted for him, not me
Date:	4/10/2009 9:02:50 AM

What an interesting post from an Obama supporter. I thought when the Messiah was elected the world was going to come together, the skies would open up and the sun would shine. Now you are telling me that we have all these problems and we are relying on a community agitator that can't even get basic etiquette right as our solution?!?!?

One comment on your point about political parties at loggerheads. My friend, Republicans have been completely shut out of the political process, especially in the House. Democrats have control of the White House, the Senate (especially with the RINOs Specter, Collins and Snowe) and the House. They can and have been doing any da** thing they want. This is their mess and they are doing nothing but making it worse with trillions of dollars of new debt, an incredible increase in the size, scope and intrusiveness of the federal government, hiring and firing of CEOs, running the stock market down and on and on. There is no one to blame here but you self professed moderates who took a chance on hope and change.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Here you go
Date:	4/10/2009 9:04:05 AM

I feel that it is your moral obligation to defend yourself and your family. Avoid situations when possible, and take action to resolve them as quickly as possible when you have no other choice. A cargo ship such as the Maersk Alabama would provide a stable platform from which to deploy defensive fire, and if you want the military to be involved – place a team of operators on each American flagged ship going through the region if requested and funded by the owners.

As far as the bow – the issue is not the bow itself – I agree it is childish to beat that horse. The problem is that we have another administration that will LIE to us over petty crap. If we have conclusive evidence of a bow, why do we have the Presidential staff telling us “it ain’t so”? As much as I did not like Bush, I feel that he was much more honest than Obama or Clinton, and when they lie to us about a bow do you feel that you can trust that they will tell you the truth when it comes to something of consequence? If they insist on playing the American people as fools or idiots, Obama should have confiscated the video evidence, and Clinton should have offered to get that dress laundered.

Name:	Summer Lover -	Reply
Subject:	Sorry Hound
Date:	4/10/2009 9:07:34 AM

I meant to address paragraph two to the architect of ruin.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	OK he definintely bowed
Date:	4/10/2009 10:52:35 AM

I just watched it too for the first time. The whole thing was very odd but it made him look like a servant or some low-level diplomat and not the President of the United States. A bow in any culture sends a very strong message about relationships and I am sure our enemies found it telling. He is being very poorly served by his people......

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	OK he definintely bowed
Date:	4/10/2009 3:30:00 PM

Yeah, I didn't get it. His body language was weird, because it was almost like a walking bow.
I don't really think there is anything cosmic there.

As far as my voting for him, I'm still glad I did. If the Republicans had run someone decent, I might have gone that way; but, given the choices, I'm still okay with how I voted. I'm not thrilled about his economics so far, I don't think it's a good idea for the government to underwrite these companies, and when all is said and done, I don't think spending trillions of dollars is going to stimulate the economy.
But, I did not see the Republicans, during the campaign putting forth anything more than making Bush's tax cuts permanent. and I still don't think that is the only answer. And that is my problem with the Republicans right now -- instead of coming up with alternatives and taking them to the public and letting the voters and constituites put pressure on the Dems; they are just standing back and grumbling that the Dems aren't letting them play. You've got to get out there and make your case; and I don't see that happenening. These are big guys, experienced politicans, and if they don't know how to wage the media war, shame on them.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Here's a summary
Date:	4/11/2009 9:09:42 AM

Hound: This is a perfect example of the embargo the mainstream media has placed on Republican ideas. This is a brief summary of the stimulus plan they are proposing. Seems a bit more than making the Bush tax cuts permanent. And as you can see below, their plan's philosophy is to put more cash in the hands of consumers and businesses which drive the economy. The main difference is they don't creat new government costs to put the cash in their hands. You may not think its enough but it is projected to create twice as many jobs at half the cost of the Obama/Reid/Pelosi pork plan:

House Republican Economic Recovery Plan

House Republicans are proposing:

Immediate Tax Relief for Working Families:

Rather than a refundable credit based on payroll taxes, House Republicans propose reducing the lowest individual tax rates from 15% to 10% and from 10% to 5%. As a result every taxpaying-family in America will see an immediate increase in their income with an average benefit of $500 in tax relief from the drop in the 10% bracket and $1,200 for the drop in the 15% bracket. A married couple filing jointly could save up to $3,200 a year in taxes.

Help for America’s Small Businesses:

Small businesses (those employing less than 500 individuals) employ about half of all Americans, yet they can be subject to tax rates that siphon away one-third or more of their income. House Republicans propose to allow small business to take a tax deduction equal to 20% of their income. This will immediately free up funds for small businesses to retain and hire new employees.

No Tax Increases to Pay for Spending:

The stimulus proposal pending in Congress includes record levels of government spending that will substantially increase the current deficit. House Republicans are concerned that this level of spending will result in some proposing near-term tax increases on American families. House Republicans are insisting that any stimulus package include a provision precluding any tax increases now or in the future to pay for this new spending. House Republicans believe that any stimulus spending should be paid for by reducing other government spending, not raising taxes.

Assistance for the Unemployed:

Incredibly, the Federal Government actually imposes income taxes on an individual receiving unemployment benefits. House Republicans propose to make unemployment benefits tax free so that those individuals between jobs can focus on providing for their families. The plan would also extend unemployment benefits from March to December, 2009.

Stabilizing Home Values:

The real-estate market is paralyzed as potential buyers wait on the sidelines waiting for prices to fall even further. This is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. In order to encourage responsible buyers to enter the market and stabilize prices, House Republicans propose a home-buyers credit of $7,500 for those buyers who can make a minimum down-payment of 5%

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	But, they
Date:	4/11/2009 8:09:41 PM

need to sell it. I mean really sell it. I don't believe that the mainstream news media is deaf to Republican ideas -- I watch Morning Joe most mornings and they have tons of Republicans on there. And there is the internet. And all the talking head shows on Sunday morning. And like Obama, they can take their message to the people in various forums. Republicans have grass roots organizations just like Dems do.
They need to get their most charismatic speaker and put him to work. They can't whine, they can't complain.

In my view, the problem is that they need to stop whining and start selling. (and maybe fire Michael Steele who is becoming a huge embarassment.)

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	But, they
Date:	4/12/2009 10:01:05 AM

I agree they need to sell it but you are a much better informed person than most and did not know about their alternate stimulus plan.

As for Steele, I would say he has been less of an embarassment to me than a disappointment. He doesn't seem to have been very effective and the only big news we see about him is his abortion gaffe in GQ magazine and his dust off with Rush. Part of that is the inherent bias in the media but given that is a fact of life he needs to do a much better job positioning the message and avoiding distractions. And why they haven't jumped all over these Tea Party's is beyond me. That is grassroots at its finest.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	But, they
Date:	4/12/2009 12:32:08 PM

I don't know, they play clips of Steele all the time and his ridiculous statements. I think he is a joke.

This is a prime example of my aggrevation with the Republicans. They just can't seem to find anyone of quality to lead them.
I saw Shelby on Morning Joe. He came across like he had a stick up his butt. He may be a smart man, but he seemed so uptight and when someone tried to joke with him about Alabama football, he didn't even smile. Morning Joe is Republican friendly, since he was a Republican Congressman from Florida in the 90's, and he went to University of Alabama.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	But, they
Date:	4/12/2009 2:52:58 PM

For sure they need to find a way to appeal to voters like you or they will remain in the electoral woodshed. Not sure who that is as I am not the best judges of that. I like Cantor, Tom Price, Ryan and some others but they don't seem to be able to break away from the pack.

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