| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Makes No Sense
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Date:
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12/31/2012 6:53:01 PM
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Listening to Grover Norquist on CNN, he says he can accept the increase in taxes for those over $450,000. That should enable Republicans who signed the pledge not to increaese taxes to vote for a plan.
I fail to understand all the rhetoric my party keeps repeating that the majority of the peolpe support increasing taxes for those earning over $250,000. People will usually support increasing taxes for everyone else except themselves. The question really makes no sense.
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| Name: |
wix
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| Subject: |
90% of democrats don't
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Date:
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12/31/2012 8:56:49 PM
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Pay taxes. What the hell are you talking about?
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Makes No Sense
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Date:
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12/31/2012 9:41:35 PM
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GF: I don't quite understand what you mean. Is that rhetoric or a fact?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Makes No Sense
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Date:
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1/1/2013 1:22:34 AM
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You aren't making a lot of sense either. Early New Year celebrating have your fingers "tongue-tied"?
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| Name: |
CAT BOAT
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| Subject: |
Makes No Sense
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Date:
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1/1/2013 9:43:27 AM
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Yall ALL are too old to be up that time of night. Now, go to bed.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
You don't understand the pledge
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Date:
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1/1/2013 10:40:52 AM
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GF, like the media and most on the left you simply don't understand the nature of the pledge and never have so let me explain and I think it will make better sense. Grover is simply a conduit for the pledge. The pledge not to raise taxes was actualy made to the voters of the district or state that voted for the Senator or Representative. By signing the pledge they communicated an important value to the voters and I can assure you for many of us it was a litmus test in the primaries. These politicians are simply doing something they promised the voters they would do....oppose income tax increases. I cannot for the life of me understand why it is OK for Obama to go after his promised tax increases but it's not OK for those members of Congress who promised not to vote for them to vote no. And I can assure you that any that do will face a strong primary challenge by someone that will adhere to their promises. Elections have consequences and the American people returned the GOP to control of the House for a reason.
We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. The increase in taxes will only harm the economy and will not come even remotely close to solving the real problem, in fact it will make it worse. These are unadulterated truths based on history and economics as I have explained in other posts. The fact is if you want to truly increase revenues to the treasury you would actually lower tax rates or make the current rates permanent and if you want to truly reduce the national debt at the same time you would attack the spending problem concurrently. But that is not what Obama and Harry Reid are doing and with the aid of the govt media they have changed the subject to class envy. That you and the other low information voters (or maybe you simply agree with Obama and Reid) fall for this is a sad comment about our education system. I have never understood the ability of otherwise intelligent people to simply ignore facts, logic and reason and pursue or support policies that have never and will never work and actually create the opposite results from those being expressed as a reason for wanting them. It is truly a marvel to me and the victory of emotion over reason.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
MM
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Date:
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1/2/2013 7:48:54 AM
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Enjoy the Kool-Aide
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Archibald drives by again
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Date:
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1/2/2013 8:16:58 AM
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Thanks for driving by and adding nothing of value to the conversation......as usual.
You see copperline, Archie is the poster child for the left wing nuts who lack the intellectual curiosity to critically examine any issue, lack reason and logic and are like having a discussion with a petulant four year old child with learning disabilities. No matter how hard you try to get them to think, they simply are unable to do so. This is why your much desired conversation about issues cannot happen with any modicum of intelligent discourse. Arguing with idiots is always a foolhardy exercise......they eventually bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Archibald drives by again
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Date:
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1/2/2013 10:09:37 AM
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You see copperline, Archie is the poster child for the left
wing nuts who lack the intellectual curiosity to critically examine any issue,
Wrong, Liberals have plenty of
intellectual curiosity & willingness to examine the issues.
lack reason and logic
and are like having a discussion with a petulant four year old child with
learning disabilities.
Useless inflammatory insult.
No matter how hard you try to get them to think, they
simply are unable to do so.
Liberals have made the same generalization
about conservatives many times.
This is why your much desired conversation about
issues cannot happen with any modicum of intelligent discourse.
if we can’t have a conversation about
our differences, what should we do?
Shoot at each other? Opps. We’ve
already started that…..
Arguing with idiots is always a foolhardy
exercise......they eventually bring you down to their level and then beat you
with experience.
When was the last time you called
one of your Board Members an idiot? Did
it help?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Archibald drives by again
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Date:
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1/2/2013 10:34:48 AM
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Of course you totally ignored the fact that my post was in direct response to Archie's fact free post. But here are my thoughts on your parsing of my post.
Wrong, Liberals have plenty of intellectual curiosity & willingness to examine the issues.
Not in my experience.....and I have a lot of experience debating left wing nuts How else can you explain their willfully ignoring basic economic truths in pursuit of demonstrably failed policies? What they propose results in the exact opposite result they maintain they are pursuing so they are either intellectually lazy or willfully misleading. Which is it? What they actually do is demonize and lie to promote their failed policies because they have no intellectual or historical basis for them. So everyone that disagrees is mean spirited and greedy when the exact opposite is true.
Useless inflammatory insult. Not at all. It is merely an observation based on experience. Liberals have made the same generalization about conservatives many times. Maybe so but I have facts to back up my observation. Where are theirs? if we can’t have a conversation about our differences, what should we do? Shoot at each other? Opps. We’ve already started that….. Really?!?!? We've already started to shoot at each other? Perhaps you could provide evidence of conservatives shooting at liberals. The only instances I can think of are left wing nuts fomenting violence and if you need a list I will be glad to provide it. And I do hope you bring up the usual events because all have been thoroughly debunked despite the govt media's pathetic attempts to connect them to conservative organizations. And you wonder why we cannot have a conversation when you make outrageous and baseless claims like that. You make make my point above about the lack of liberal intellect with this comment. When was the last time you called one of your Board Members an idiot? Did it help? Actually none of my Board members are liberal and certainly not left wing nuts so why would I have to refer to them that way? One voted for Obama but only because he could not get himself to vote for Romney although he would have voted for a number of other Republicans but unfortunately they did not run. So your assumption is incorrect. The fact is I would never have a left wing nut on my Board. I want my business to thrive.
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| Name: |
copperline
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| Subject: |
Archibald drives by again
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Date:
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1/2/2013 11:16:15 AM
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My use of the word "shooting" was a reference to verbal insults. I don't think I can convince you, you seem to take great pleasure in all this. For whatever reason, there are people on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide who find it useful to gin up the conflicts to the most intense level possible.
I think it's easier to harp about our differences than to spend the effort required to find out where our common ground is. Sniping at each other is quick & easy, insulting each other anonymously is amusing & macho.
Bullsh-t isn't getting us anywhere, unless what we really want is to play the fiddle while Rome burns...
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Uh huh.....
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Date:
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1/2/2013 12:32:15 PM
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I'm sorry, but your explanation about the shooting reference doesn't wash with me......I knew what you were implying even if you don't want to admit it. But let's agree to let it pass and I won't harp on it anymore.
As for the constant refrain about sniping what you have to understand is that I am a fiscal and social conservative and there is very little common ground to be found with left wing ideology. If you can find it without me having to abandon my principles then I am all ears. Because I have to believe what I believe because I have examined the facts and have looked at history and while there is always room for compromise my experience has been that the liberal idea of compromise is for me to abandon what I logically and rationally know works. I am not a politician and I don't have to do that and I won't do that.
If you want to engage in the arena of ideas in a logical and rational way absent the usual emoting I am keen for that kind of discourse. But when left wing nuts like Archie tell me I am a kool aid drinker because I adhere to what is factually true and logical it is hard to have that discussion.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Sorry CU____
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Date:
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1/2/2013 2:12:33 PM (updated 1/2/2013 2:16:47 PM)
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Just understand that MM is so far to the extreme right, so indoctrinated with rightest drivel and so all fired sure he alone has all the answers, that anybody that questions, much less challenges, anything he says is automatically a person to be put down with often vile and always childish diatribes and insults. He is much too brilliant and busy to have any interest in a conversation with anybody unless it begins with "MM I am 100% in agreement with 100% of everything you have ever said or thought." It is impossible for him to believe that some people (probably most people) are in the middle of the political spectrum and realize that too much power by either of the two extremes leads, at best to paralysis and, at worst to complete ruin. He rants his opinions endlessly but refuses to answer direct questions which might show a crack in his "reasoning" or touch of hypocrisy, opting instead for more name calling.
I can imagine no greater complement than to be ridiculed by the likes of Martiny Man.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Uh....I believe you have described yourself
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Date:
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1/2/2013 3:16:10 PM
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Archie, I always have facts and logic on my side as described in my explanation of the pledge. You of course could only respond with a fact-free and not very clever kool aid comment. As I stated before, I believe what I believe because I have examined the issues and have come to logical conclusions from them. That you disagree is not exactly any motivation for me to throw logic and reason to the wind and agree with you.......actually, when you disagree with me it is further proof of the validity of my beliefs, albeit anecdotal.
If you have some facts that you want to bring into the conversation I am all ears.......there is a first for everything. But lets keep the emotion out of this and save that for your car buying decisions or picking out your clothing.
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| Name: |
h_hob
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| Subject: |
Uh....I believe you have described yourself
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Date:
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1/2/2013 4:03:10 PM
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MM,
You missed one item, this being, Archibelle has his live-in of choice tell him what to wear every morning.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Uh....I believe you have described yourself
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Date:
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1/2/2013 5:41:30 PM
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I have my beliefs which are based on observations and facts as I interpret them (BTW: they are not nearly as "liberal" as you always insist) and I consider some of them superior to yours. The difference between you and me is that I make it clear that the opinions (not the facts...that is completely different) I express are just that and I try not to belittle others expressing a differing opinion. MM, I consider my opinions sound but I will never "bet the farm" that they will be eventually proven correct. Even a slight doubt is a problem which has never burdened you. A wise man (don't remember who) said to the effect the most dangerous thing in the world is a man who is absolutely positive he is right. Another wise man (think it might have been that old lefty Bertrand Russell) said the most brilliant minds are always filled with doubt and the dullest ones are filled with absolute certainty.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Uh....I believe you have described yourself
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Date:
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1/2/2013 6:06:01 PM
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Yeah, yeah Archie, you have used that quote before and yes, there is reason to doubt opinions but not the facts on which they are based. The problem I have with leftists is their opinions are all too often not based on facts, they are based on emotion and feelings. To wit, this ridiculous insistence on raising taxes on job creators, allegedly in order to raise revenue despite the very clear evidence that it doesn't work and that in fact the opposite happens. How do you explain this? Are they lying or just ignorant and unwilling to learn? I would really like to know because it is a greta mystery to me and I could not live that way. And do I need to restate the facts that I base my opinion on? And if I do it once again will it change your opinion or any other liberal? I don't think so but I would love to be proved wrong. I have just found liberals to be impervious to a rational argument as to why they are wrong.
I tell you in the post above what I believe about the importance of GOP members of Congress fulfilling their promise to the voters and you respond with this inane kool aid comment. Is that all you have to add to the conversation? Is that your idea of a fact based discussion? You don't want to compete in the arena of ideas because that is not one where you can successfully persuade anyone but the most ill informed.
I think not and that's because you want to raise taxes not for the stated reason but to punish achievement out of class envy. And Democrat politicians recognize this class envy and use it as a means to gather up more votes. That is why I hold them in such low regard and why Europe is such a mess. And we are headed there and I plan to oppose that with every fiber of my being. I will not be quiet because it offends leftists....sorry. And I will hold them in low regard if they refuse to listen to reason. And I don't care about opinion polls or political positioning or any of that crap. I believe what I believe because of the examination of facts and if my facts are wrong or there are others that I need to know bring them on. I will be glad to look at them but quit wasting our time with your kool aid comments and attempts to demonize me because you don't like what I say or how I say it. Bring on something,,,anything....that is based on some truth and I promise you I will change my opinions.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I love it
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Date:
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1/2/2013 10:05:58 PM
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
I love it
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Date:
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1/2/2013 10:15:08 PM
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Love what, being humiliated?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I love it
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Date:
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1/2/2013 10:22:37 PM
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Of course he does. It is really disturbing and sad to know that people like Archie are out there and can and do vote. But that pretty much sums up why we re-elected a failed President and left Democrats in charge of the Senate despite not having passed a budget in four years. The left has really accomplished a lot to dumb down the electorate in the govt schools, the govt media and the entertainment industry. That so many people still have the ability to think critically is truly a miracle. For lack of about 500,000 votes in four states we could have avoided this but alas, they won and elections have consequences.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I love it
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Date:
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1/2/2013 10:38:10 PM (updated 1/2/2013 10:40:44 PM)
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when you take it on your broad shoulders to define what I believe for me. I guess it doesn't matter if I have expressed a different belief on many occasions. You explain for my benefit that I want to raise taxes on upper income earners to punish success rather than to improve our fiscal situation. In a posting string several days ago I asked a reasonable question about what' as of last night, is now reality. You spouted all the T party and Grover talking points but steadfastly refused to answer in a way that made any sense. Well, I did answer it (as did WW)...I would have preferred, and still do, that all taxes should revert to the rates in 2000* (I suspect you did pretty well in the Clinton years even with those onerous taxes). Yep...raise'em for all of us. That would increase revenues by 5 trillion over the next 10 years. That combined with sensible spending cuts in all areas including the military and reform of all entitlements including gradually raising the medicare age to 67 (Reagan and the democratic congress did it with Social Security in 1983). We had a chance to end the deficit in 3 years but were too stupid to take it.
* You, oh lover of facts, try google or the BLS to compare for yourself the FACTS of economic growth, employment growth, and stock market growth between 1993 and 2000 with all those onerous taxes which were forecast by Gingrich, Gramm et al to send us into depression vs 2001 and 2008 after the tax cuts which we were told would bring us economic nirvana. And BTW, it is a FACT that
if we completely ended all discretionary spending in all areas other than the military and kept taxes at the pre Jan 1 rates we would still have a yearly deficit of over 500 billion dollars.
Now in closing...basing some opinions on emotion is called being a human being. MM you are an adding machine!!
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| Name: |
h_hob
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| Subject: |
I love it
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Date:
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1/2/2013 11:27:12 PM
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Archibelle,
You are a human manure spreader.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Non sequitar on taxes
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Date:
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1/3/2013 8:12:12 AM (updated 1/3/2013 8:22:10 AM)
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You see Archie that is where your govt school education fails you......the inability to draw the proper conclusion. Only the ideologically blind would attempt to connect tax cuts in 2002 which were followed by 5 years of robust economic growth and historic increases of revenues to the Treasury (check out those facts) to a recession in 2008 that everyone....well apparently except you.......understands was caused by a collapse of the housing market that was artificially distorted by Fannie and Freddie.
And even your beloved Bill Clinton admitted he raised taxes too much in his second term which caused a recession that likely cost Algore the presidency. Do you need the quote or can you find it yourself? Archie, I would recommend some remedial economics for you but I doubt it would help. I actually learned something in my undergraduate business and MBA classes about the subject, but you refuse to listen. Thats why I always combine the terms "facts", "logic" and "reason"........something you apparently are unable to do.
I welcome your factual rebuttal of what I have stated but make sure you use actual numbers on economic growth and revenues....especially interesting after tax increases and tax reductions.......look at the numbers.......draw logical conclusions......use your God given reason and forget what you read on HuffnPuff, Politico or pmsnBS....they are deluding you, don't fall for it....save yourself Archie from a lifetime of economic illiteracy.....its not too late.....
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears
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Date:
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1/3/2013 7:54:59 PM
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When the well reasoned analysis of facts leading to a logical conclusion just devastates his warped world view? I can only imagine him feverishly searching HuffnPuff, pmsnBS, politico and the fat slob Michael Moore's website for anything.....any tidbit....that would refute a basic truth. "Dear Lord......not that I actually believe in you.....but if you existed....please give me something....anything....to refute that obnoxious and arrogant MartiniMan....if you do, why I'll......I'll give some money to charity....I'll go to church services....OK, I won't really do any of those things but give me a break anyway....pppppuuuuulllleeeeezzeee!!!!!" The sweat puring off his forehead, his neck red from high blood pressure, veins popping out as he is staring at the screen loking for a glimmer of hope but finding none and giving up in a mixture of anger and despair.
Facts and the reasoned logical conclusion thereof.....damnable things for the average left wing nut!!!! LOL!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears????
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Date:
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1/3/2013 10:35:46 PM (updated 1/3/2013 10:37:01 PM)
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I disappear because I work for a living...MM pontificates for a living. Well I somehow missed the "recession" of 2000 that cost Al Gore the election (even though he did get 550,000 more votes than Mr. Bush).
You are correct in an earlier post that revenues increased every year during Mr Reagan's term...after he cut taxes and after he RAISED taxes. Revenues really jumped after the tax reform act of 1983 which was sponsored by Sen Bill Bradley(D) with the president's support. Among other things it raised capitol gains rates, made the depreciation deductions rules stricter, and greatly increased revenue intake. Of course the president also signed into law bi-partisan Social Security reform which raised the payroll tax and gradually increased the retirement age to 67. Employment increased a healthy 18 million between 1981 and 1988. I also seem to remember the Democratic controlled congress gave Mr. Reagan less than he requested in every budget save one over those years.
Now, after Mr Clinton RAISED taxes over the cries of "depression" by the Newster we "suffered" through 8 years of record breaking economic growth, employment growth (23 million) 'AND revenue growth (exceeding Reagan's). With the bi-partisan efforts of the Republican house, Democratic and Republican Senate and the president the budget was balanced and we went into 2000 with a $250 billion budget surplus that Chairman Greenspan was fretting would depress the bond markets by paying off our debt too quickly.
Then comes Mr Bush, a Republican House, a Republican Senate, a huge surplus and big tax cuts TWICE. In the 7 years before the meltdown in 2008 the employment growth is under 2 million, anemic economic growth and sluggish revenues. Then comes 2008...the bottom falls out of all aspects of the economy and the deficit passes 1 trillion (would be more if Mr. Bush put the Iraq war on budget rather call it "emergency funding").
Now MM, those are the FACTS...I don't claim to know why it all happened this way but it did. Keep and spout your OPINION til the last dog dies... but these are the FACTS.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears????
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Date:
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1/3/2013 11:11:09 PM
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So the only logical solution to a failing economy, as demonstrated by your review of history, is to raise taxes (maybe create new ones too?) it seems you have discovered the true heart of capitalism: it's just a scam devised to funnel money to its government, while brainwashing it's citizens into thinking they are actually improving their own lives
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears????
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Date:
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1/4/2013 7:58:49 AM (updated 1/4/2013 8:20:12 AM)
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It is amazing so many of you folks take it upon yourselves to decide for ME what MY opinions are. Did you read it all? I explain I don't know why the economy has performed as it has for the last 30 years, but the FACTS (MM's gold standard) demonstrate that tax cuts do not automatically bring prosperity and tax increases do not always bring doom. Now I guess you too can continue to "chug-a-lug chug-a-lug"...drink that Kool Aide with the rest of the T-party fact deniers.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears????
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Date:
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1/4/2013 8:17:40 AM
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I'm agreeing with your facts. Why can't you come to the same conclusion?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Huh??
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Date:
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1/4/2013 8:33:51 AM
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You are agreeing with my facts and come to the conclusion that I am claiming the only way to ease our difficulties is to raise taxes?? NO...I give no such opinion, neither do I say cutting taxes is the answer. I am saying that the facts cannot be used by the left to support higher taxes nor the right to support lower taxes. We have grown and retracted under higher taxes and lower taxes. My argument is that, based on actual facts, neither side has a convincing case as to how the economy is influenced by taxes. Taxes are a part of the equation but not the only or even most critical element. If the facts are on your side you pound the facts, if the facts are not on your side then pound the table (ain't that right MM?).
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears????
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Date:
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1/4/2013 9:07:58 AM (updated 1/4/2013 9:15:34 AM)
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Uh Archie, don't you remember the quote from der Slickmeister himself that he raised taxes too much?!?!? That he acknowledged raising taxes caused an economic slowdown? Didn't JFK say the same thing?
As for Bush's record, once again this is where your inability to use logic and reason fail you. You see Archie, on September 11, 2001 America was attacked by Islamofascists. This attack had the potential for significant negative impact on the economy and we were saved by the lowered tax rates and after the rates were lowered a combination of an improved economy and those rates resulted in record growth of revenues to the Treasury.....record growth AFTER a tax cut Archie. The exact same thing happened during the Reagan years. It always happens that way. You have to look at the whole picture Archie........educate yourself man, look at all the factors, think critically. I mean the Braves were also very good during the Clinton years but that didn't cause a surplus, right?
As for Clinton's record the only reason there was a surplus was the GOP controlled Congress forced him into making spending cuts and he was really the first President to fully experience the benefit of Reagan, Thatcher and Pope John Paul the Great having defeated the Soviet Union without firing a shot. Peace through strength.....a beautiful concept. But I will say there is no doubt that Clinton was more ambitious than he was ideological and he recognized that strong economic growth was important.....until he was reelected and then he raised taxes too much (his words, not mine) and caused an economic slowdown, thereby sending Algore into his fantasy world of Globaloney.
I would suggest some good books for you to read Archibald but it is frankly a waste of time. I just like defeating you in these arguments......for fun.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Because he lacks logic and reason
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Date:
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1/4/2013 9:10:14 AM
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But even his facts are not correct as I demonstrated in my posts. But more importantly his ability to logically analyze those and other facts is almost totally absent. Facts, logic and reason.........thats the key.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Lunch break
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Date:
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1/4/2013 2:03:08 PM (updated 1/4/2013 2:06:42 PM)
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MM BS's again. There was no recession in Clinton's term. There was a decrease in the rate of growth after the dot-com bubble popped but no recession. Al Gore won the popular vote and perhaps the electoral vote...we will never know because of the Supremes. The growth of jobs, revenue stocks and economic expansion was stronger under Clinton after he raised taxes than under Reagan after he cut taxes. I doubt that the tax policy had much to do with either result but facts are facts...take em or leave em. To come to a balanced budget were the big spending Democrats in the Senate also "forced" to cut spending by the GOP house (why not a filibuster)? Face it MM it was compromise rearing its ugly head. The growth under Bush after he cut taxes was slower than under Jimmy Carter. The above is fact brought to you by history.
Now show me where my "facts" are wrong or just continue spout your talking points and BS the board as usual.
OH another quick "fact"... the most robust growth in the Bush tenure occurred in the years following the attack of the "Islamofascists"!
Now I'm going back to work. Sorry I'm not successful enough to BS all day like MM.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Show me the numbers Archibald
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Date:
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1/4/2013 4:35:39 PM
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Carter's four years were an unmitigated economic disaster and you think it was the same as under Bush?!?!? Reagan inherited an absolutely horrendous economy.....remember staglation?!?!? Remember our national malaise?!?!?!? Remember the energy crisis?!?!? Remember the fall of Iran?!?!? I know since you voted for Carter twice you are trying to forget. The Bush years, including 2008, were an absolute cake walk when compared to Carter's presidency and what followed it for the early Reagan years.
You are probably the most ill informed person I have ever met that tries to appear informed. Show me the numbers to back up your claim Archie......and don't cherry pick either. Lets look at economic growth (GDP), revenue to the Treasury, unemployment, interest rates, inflation, etc. for the four years of Carter compared to Reagan's two terms and Bush's two terms. And just to be fair since we have had the last four years of blaming Bush we will attribute the first two years of each new term to the prior president.
Let's look at the trends and what happened to the economy after Reagan lowered tax rates compared to prior years. There is a reason Reagan beat Carter in a 49 state landslide and I remember it well.....Carter caused the economy to tank. And there is a reason Reagan won his second term in a landslide as well......his policies turned the economy around.
Breathless in its magnificent invincible ignorance.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Forgot to mention
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Date:
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1/4/2013 5:09:09 PM
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As I said, there was indeed an economic slowdown in Clinton's 2nd term that extended into Bush's first term.
Here is a quote from CNN Money (not exactly a right wing rag): The current Bush administration's claim that it inherited a recession from Clinton became somewhat more credible last week, when the Commerce Department revised its estimates of GDP, the broadest measure of economic growth, in the first, second and third quarters of 2001, showing that it shrank in all three quarters.Earlier estimates found economic activity contracted in only the third quarter of 2001, due mostly to a dramatic, temporary slowdown in activity after the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Since one popular rule-of-thumb definition of a recession is two or more consecutive quarters of shrinking GDP, it became possible, based on the revised data, to say a recession began in January 2001.
Now January 2001 was when Bush entered office and you don't just go from robust economic growth to a recession in one day. So in fact there was an economic slowdown in Clinton's second term that turned into a minor recession in the very early part of Bush's term and before the 911 attacks. Only after Bush lowered the tax rates did the economy began to recover and only then did record revenues flow to the Treasury from the tax cuts that caused robust economic growth. You see here is where some economics education would help you Archie, the U.S. economy is like a big ship that turns slowly so imprudent policies take some time to take effect as do policies meant to right the ship. Any other so-called facts you want to spout Archie......talk about BS....but then again maybe CNN Money was wrong and only you have the truth that you have been keeping from the rest of the world...until now.....LOL
And now Archibald, the money quote from the big guy himself from the NY Times and the context of the quote was the impact of taxes on economic growth:
"Probably there are people in this room still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. It might surprise you to know that I think I raised them too much, too."
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| Name: |
Lifer
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| Subject: |
Lunch break
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Date:
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1/4/2013 5:25:09 PM
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The biggest reason for economic prosperity under Clinton was the phenomenal growth of the internet and specifically the WWW which created the hyperlink that was the key to its success.. It sprouted a whole new industry like had not been seen since the automobile industry in the 20's. At one point there were over 500 automobile companies traded ont the NYSE. It also created a whole new business model, start-up, loose several million, go public, become billionaires, then go belly up. Bush came in right at the 'go belly up' stage. Remember the "tech bubble". It was the forefather of the 'housing bubble'. Both created billions in false wealth, well false for the suckers that bought into it, but a bonanza for those that orchestrated it. Franklin Raines comes to mind as a great example of receiving a bonanza built on false profits.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Huh??
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Date:
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1/4/2013 8:27:10 PM
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OK, if taxes are "not the only, or even most critical element" in the economic travails, can you state your opinion as to what is (are) the critical elements? ( you really do spend a lot of time denying what you promote...)
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| Name: |
h_hob
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| Subject: |
Notice how Archie disappears????
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Date:
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1/5/2013 12:41:31 PM
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The only fact you might have written was this quote, "I disappear because I work for a living...MM pontificates for a living." However, you sound like sour grapes or should I say a liberal crying?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Huh??
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Date:
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1/5/2013 4:12:00 PM (updated 1/5/2013 4:13:13 PM)
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I said at the beginning that I have no idea. My point, based on what has in FACT happened in the past, neither does MM. The difference is I know I don't have all the answers...he is absolutely positive he does!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Prove me wrong MM
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Date:
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1/5/2013 4:21:17 PM (updated 1/5/2013 4:36:59 PM)
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Good grief, get a grip MM...did I say Carter was a good president? NO, he was probably not the complete disaster you think but certainly will be remembered by history as an unsuccessful president. I did say there were more gains in employment during Carter's 4 years than in the 7 years of Bush's term prior to the 2008 collapse. That is a statement of FACT, not an editorial comment. You seem to exalt in the idea of you pointing out the wonderful results in the years when policy trended more toward your "utopian" concept of society but get your knickers in a knot anytime someone dares to counter any of your superior musings.
Now MM I can assure you I have no intention of wasting a Saturday afternoon doing research for you. I plan to spend it with a G and T and start a new book. Let's just say, I am correct in my information given in this thread and if you don't believe it you're welcome to prove me wrong! Heck, you can probably assign the task to one of your underlings.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Hey hob...I'm back...4:36
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Date:
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1/5/2013 4:35:51 PM (updated 1/5/2013 4:37:21 PM)
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How do you consider giving facts (the truth) sour grapes? Perhaps it scares you.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Huh??
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Date:
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1/5/2013 4:52:24 PM
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So you have no idea about any of this you continue to argue about? You just felt the need to dispute MM's assertions? Where on the list of your obsessions does this rank?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Sorry
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Date:
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1/5/2013 10:31:20 PM (updated 1/5/2013 10:35:40 PM)
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I am not disputing MM's assertions so much as bring to light certain facts which might make any reasonable person begin to question why MM and most of the folks on this forum are so convinced of the certainty of those assertions. If someone asserts that lower taxes ALWAYS stokes stronger economic growth and higher taxes ALWAYS inhibits growth and then someone else gives certifiable information demonstrating that assertion is not ALWAY historically accurate, it's called debate. There was a time in this nation when it was considered a worthwhile and even noble civic effort. Seems MM and the T party crowd is well past that "nonsense".
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Sorry
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Date:
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1/5/2013 10:55:48 PM
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Yes.
Just like a Norman Rockwell painting, those are wonderful, antiquated, and (currently) laughable sentiments.
You need to keep up with the pack, or hold your tongue
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Notice how Hob Knob disappears????
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Date:
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1/6/2013 12:03:50 AM
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Hob Knob mst have drowned in the outhouse or, more likely, he fears Archibald and needs some help from his fellow right wing niuts. But, they are atypical wing nuts............MIA.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Notice how Hob Knob disappears????
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Date:
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1/6/2013 12:27:16 AM
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Hope you have moved on to vodka or gin - less headache in the morning (at least till the first bloody)
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| Name: |
h_hob
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| Subject: |
Notice how Hob Knob disappears????
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Date:
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1/6/2013 12:28:35 AM
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I'm not MIA. I first noticed just the other day you and Archibelle disappear at the same time. I now know why the two of you so favored LGBT rights. How was your honeymoon? Where did you take Archibelle for your honeymoon and why wasn't I invited to the wedding?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Notice how Hob Knob disappears????
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Date:
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1/6/2013 8:45:39 AM
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We were afraid you might come "packin"! ;>)
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
You may be right
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Date:
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1/6/2013 8:48:57 AM
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and that is very sad and very troubling.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Yep, Carter was a lousy President
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Date:
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1/6/2013 4:34:16 PM
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On that we agree. Actually unemployment went down for the first 2-3 years of Carter's presidency and once his domestic economic policies took effect unemployment in one year went from 5.8% to 7% and Reagan crushed the worthless peanut farmer. Which is why I am glad you brought that up. Why did Carter go from job creation to job losses in such a short time? He raised taxes on job creators. Thank you Archie for inadvertently proving my point.
Now in a previous post I documented that tax receipts to the Treasury were at record highs during the Bush administration after he lowered tax rates and until the Fannie/Freddie caused recession we had low unemployment, high economic growth, low inflation, etc. all this despite having been attacked on 9/11. And Reagan was yet another example of this outcome when you lower tax rates. And he had to spend the first half of his first term battling inflation with Volcker. Only after he go it under control and reduced tax rates did we see an economic boom.
Glad to do your research for you Archie.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I don't pontificate for a living
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Date:
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1/6/2013 4:35:57 PM
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Like going into politics, I could not take the pay cut. But if it paid well I would gladly do it and would do a fine job of it as well.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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You can pontificate for a living
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Date:
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1/6/2013 7:04:33 PM
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2 years in congress is not a lifetime. I am sure you have a solid partner and staff that the busness will run for 2 years. And, you will still be President and receive dividends. As to how well you would do, I have no doubt you would carry the Tea Party message quite well. Suggesting you can't afford the paycut is a lame excuse. You are better thsan that when it comes to serving, think of all those who have over the years joined the miltary and took a paycut to serve our country. Your time is near and I want to contribute to the ES Election Campagin for Congree. Then, I will come ot DC and get my American flag.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
LOL
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Date:
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1/7/2013 11:45:58 AM
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GF, I like to be able to say what I believe, not what I would need to say to convince the sheeple that based on the 2012 results seem to be in the majority these days. But if I did run you would most certainly be one of my campaign advisors. Keep your friends close.....keep your enemies closer. :-)
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