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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Budget Battle
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Date:
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2/20/2011 9:21:17 AM
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Dems do not feel there should be any cuts, not even $61 billion out of $1.65 trillion, to avoide a shut down.
I say let government shut down if they want to be that foolish and stubborn ... it is on their back. The american people want cuts in the out of control Obama and dems spending ... yet they are so selfish to want bigger government and more socialism, they will not even give an inch. So let it shut down ... it will save a lot and since the critical needs like national security are not impacted, we will see we can do with far less.
Yes I know innocent people are impacted ... but that is something the dems need to answer. I do not think $61 billion is nearly enough ... but it is a start and they want zero cuts. What fools. Maybe in 2 more years we can kick more out of the senate and get sanity back again.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Budget Battle
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Date:
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2/20/2011 1:31:07 PM
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It's incredibly stupid to close down the government just to make a point. It's nothing but pure politics. Yes, spending cuts need to be made, but it needs to be a phased program. Republicans will not get their cuts through the Senate, so what is the real point of this? Yes, people want a reduction in spending, but not at the expense of shutting down the government. Just foolish.
And by the way, the last time the government got shut down for 3 days when they couldn't pass the budget and would not extend the CRA, we got 3 days off from work and ended up getting paid for it anyway. Now that is wasteful. Pols ought to remember that federal workers vote too.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Budget Battle
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Date:
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2/20/2011 3:40:49 PM
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Disagree ... the republicans won the majority because the dems spending was reckless and they were forcing programs down our throat that the american people did not want. The people said enough ... they don't want the huge government expansion and control that the dems and Obama want.
I feel the republicans must stand their ground to show they heard the people .... $61 billion is a drop in the bucket and I am more upset they did not go for more. But I am sure they were showing middle ground and now the dems look foolish that they will not even cut a lousy $61 billion. Nuts.
You are right the last time government got shut down you got days off and then back pay ... I hope it does not happen this time and every republican goes on TV saying the dems forced the shut down do to their selfish behavior that will lead to a collapse of the country and much more pain unless they start to face up to the problem THEY created.
You have the president supporting protests in a state against their governments decision to make the government employees pay a portion of their healthcare and pension ... just like every private sector employee ... this is nuts. Obama is acting like a dictator and pitting the federal government against the states. Sorry that is not how our constitution was set up.
We are headed for a showdown, like in Egypt ... but this time it will be demanding Obama out of office.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
that is Democracy
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Date:
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2/20/2011 7:05:40 PM
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People get to speak out when they don't like something. Not everyone voted for Republicans.
WW-- you would throw the baby out with the bath water. It's stupid to shut down the government. All it's going to do is tick people off, and it's not going to accomplish anything. No one voted to close down the government. They voted to cut spending in a responsible manner. Yes, some programs need to be cut and reduced, but should the government be shut down to do it? NO. Extend the CRA.
What we really need to do is raise taxes. It will happen. I'll go on record.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
that is Democracy
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Date:
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2/20/2011 7:32:06 PM
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Hound, I agree that taxes will be raised, and when it happens, hopefully it will be across the board, with every penny earmarked for DEBT REDUCTION and tied to a balanced budget amendment. Along with that, the EITC should be eliminated for people that don't pay taxes, Medicaid and Medicare funding should be reduced to 2003 levels, Social Security to 2006, with the disability payments available only to those terminally ill, Inspector Generals and outside auditors reviewing, and disclosing their findings regarding the explosion in veterans disability claims, and Fed Employee Retirement benefits based on a 10 year earning average instead of the highest 2. We disagree on your statement "it is stupid to shut down government". I remember 1995, and still think the shutdown was a good thing. It seems that less bad things happened during that shutdown period, and some really good things came out of it that would never have come about without the shutdown. Reference your "not everyone voted for Republicans" statement. ALL responsibilty for any shutdown rests squarely on the people who voted for the Democrats. They, the Democrats, led the House until 01/05/2011 (46 days ago), still control the Senate, and are on the lap of the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. They, the people elected by the Democrat voters, abdicated their responsibility to build a budget. I'm sure you knew that, just forgot to mention it.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
that is Democracy
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Date:
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2/20/2011 9:44:38 PM
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Taxes do NOT need to be raised ... spending needs to be CUT. The problem is not that we have too low taxes, take your federal, SS, medicare, State, Property, sales, capital gains, etc ... it is a huge percent of your hard earned dollars ... higher taxes to fund the excessive government spending and entitlements is NOT the answer.
I say shut down complete departments of the federal government and we will see people will do just fine without them.
Other than the milatary, there is little value I see in most departments of the federal government.
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Just like I and others said to Archie ... if you believe the government needs more of your money ... don't wait until they take it from you, just start sending the extra you believe they should have now. What is stopping you???
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I don't think tax cuts are going to do it. I think they will have to raise taxes, and spending cuts. And I think it is great idea to earmark any increase in taxes for deficit reduction, and tied to tax cuts.
WW, I don't think Veterans would appreciate your eliminating the VA, and exactly how would we function without the Treasury Department? Social Security? DEA, FBI, CIA?
I think you see where I am going. If you think hard about it, I don't think you are going to want to live in a country without government. I know it is very fashionable to disparage government and government employees, but I think it is just uninformed.
What I don't like is seeing retirement becoming a dirty word and people's retirement age being pushed out. There are some people that still function at a very high level into their elderly years, but what about those with health issues, or those that work in very physical trades? Do you really want bus drivers who are 70 years old? 70 year old firefighters, police officers, etc. Additionally to some extent our employment system relies on the older people retiring to make room for the young people.
It's one of those things that sounds very good in theory, but on a practical basis?
I think 65 is old enough.
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I never said we should live without government. But does every country have social security? I am not suggesting eliminating it, but I do think it has gone far beyond its original intent and needs to be totally overhauled. I do think Bush had the right idea turning it in to individual accounts rather than a defined benefit plan that is nothing more than a ponzy scheme.
We can do without the treasury and the department of energy, agriculture, etc. Or at least much, much smaller. Many of these departments were developed for a specific purpose and grew in to something much larger ... each becomes a power struggle.
I do feel many government agencies can be outsourced to the private sector and get better results at a much lower cost. There is not much that the government does cost effectively or as efficient as the private sector. Businesses that run deficits go out of business ... our government needs to live within its means.
When we get to the point that people are screaming for MORE government, that is when taxes should be raised. Otherwise cut and eliminate whole departments. Our government is FAT and needs to be downsized, no different than what businesses do when overhead gets too big and creates inefficiency. The government has become significantly inefficient ... and they think the answer is to become even bigger.
That is the fear with government run healthcare.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 5:48:31 AM
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SS is NOT a retirement plan ... it was never intended for that, but many people look at it that way ... and why we have the problem we do.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 7:49:50 AM
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I'm well aware the SS was not supposed to be a retirement plan, but for so many people, it is their sole income in their old age.
I'm afraid your contention that government activities can be outsourced and done more cheaply by private industry is, for the most part, a myth. Under Clinton/Gore a lot of government activities were outsourced and I can tell you that in practice, on the whole that just isn't true. It costs virtually the same for a government person or a contract person to do the job -- and in some cases more. And the accountability is not any better either.
Do I think the government could be downsized? Definitely. But what happens is that when the cuts come they are "salami sliced" and not targeted. For example, a 20% cut will come down and each activity get the same percentage it has to reduce, and not for specific activities.
There is a lot of redundancy in government and that is what needs to be either consolidated or eliminated. But, it can't be done over night or by some political commission on the Hill. It's entrenched. One example, I knew an office with 3 people (one of whom was a Senior Executive)and a $1M budget that contracted with a firm to produce a report that no one used. And my boss tried to get it killed. Do you think any of the political appointees would take that on? No. As far as I know, it's still being produced. Now that is a small example, but lots of little $1M will add up across the government.
I, of course, am watching Obama's efforts to consolidate the Export Control community.
I think it is a great idea, but I'm not optimistic. And I can tell you that business thinks that is a great idea.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 10:57:41 AM
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where we disagree is while you may believe it would take a government and private sector person the same time ... I believe the work ethic of a government employee does not come close to that in the private sector. Also is a fact the govenment employees make more than the private sector and government is extremely inefficent with all the layers, red tape and approvals.
I know you were part of the machine ... so I don't expect you to agree. But I know plenty of people that have worked on both sides and they agree and I deal with the government (state and federal) all the time and it is a joke just trying to get someone to answer the phone, call back, etc, along with their fixed work/time schedule, when the rest of us are here early and late to get things done.
Today for example ... we are working in the private sector and I am trying to get a hold of someone in Georgia Dept of Revenue ... nope it is a holiday. I have been leaving voice mails since last Wednesday and still no call back.
Our tax dollars at work ... or should I say not :)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 1:25:19 PM
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Well, it is a FEDERAL holiday. It has nothing to do with one's work ethic. Lots of industry people get a week or two of paid time off at Christmas that Gov't employees don't get. Think how frustrating it is for them, trying to reach private industry people at that time.
You make a lot of sweeping statements about the work ethics of government employees based on a few contacts. As you are always pointing out, it is a big government and there are a lot of people. I know for a fact that there are people in private industry who have bad work ethics too. But I don't damn the entire industry based on those few contacts. Some people are jerks no matter where they are.
When someone is not returning your calls, I would likely assume that their office is understaffed. Or maybe you act like an arrogant $$%# and you just moved down their "to-do" list. I think they likely sense your lack of respect for them and what they do.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 7:37:48 PM
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Hound, the outsourcing model attempted 15 years ago was doomed to fail. They left the entrenched bureaucrats in place, either on the Fed payroll, or as contractors. The myth was that using the same people, in the same roll, with the same expectations, would be more cost effective. The truth is real change is needed in performance standards and measures, attitudes, and individual accountability for the effectiveness of government service agencies to improve. If through the process some long service folks get left behind, then so be it. Your "salami slice" analogy provides a perfect example of management methods that would be short lived in the private sector. As residents of Alabama, we see the same exact response as departments face proration. Finally, the latest response to WW regarding the GA DoR failure to return calls possibly being related to their detection of his contempt breeds only greater contempt. See, in private industry, consumers vote with their pocketbook. If they are dissatisfied with a product, price or service, they can, and do, take their business elsewhere. Unfortunately, that is not an option when dealing with government employees at any level. Thanks Hound for reinforcing my opinions.
Let us pray "Dear God, please bring on the shutdown. Amen"
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 8:13:55 PM
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I could recount for you example after example where industry had some pretty unhappy international customers, that the USG stepped in and smoothed over. One thing about the Defense industry is their ability to blame the USG for their own failures. But, I won't.
Performance standards? Really? Gee, under Rumsfeld DoD did make a wholesale change in their performance standards. In fact, it was developed by a private consultant and cost well over $2M to implement. Have you noticed an appreciable change?
It's not the old time employees that are the problem. In fact, most of the senior level leadership are political appointees or civilians with well less than 15 years of service. My observation is that the political appointees are more a problem than any of the employees. Most of them are gutless and spineless.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that government employees are not held accountable. Must be another one of those myths floating around. Is Congress accountable? Not really. Are political appointees held accountable? Not really.
You aren't going to change government. what you need to realize that government is NOT private industry. It will never work like private industry, because it is Not Private Industry.
And you want to shut down the government? Fine with me. I'll let you explain it to the veterans who are awaiting a decision on their benefit cases, those who are trying to get passports and those who don't get their SS checks and those private contractors who won't get paid, because the offices where they work won't be open. Even those who are waiting for their IRS refunds. It's just a stupid political stunt. Totally irresponsible. Gee, and I thought we were going to see real leadership, responsibility and accountability from the Republicans.. Instead of doing anything useful, they are trying to shut down Planned Parenthood and NPR. That's going to make a huge difference to the deficit.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 9:08:04 PM
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I apologize. I understated the value of many Federal (non military) Employees with my generalizations. My professional experience with those folks is pretty much limited to OSHA, DOT, FDA, DoL, EEOC, FBI, USDA and EPA. Personal experience is limited to DHS, IRS, and DOJ. I never dealt with anyone in Veterans Affairs, Department of Energy, Department of Education, SSA, HUD, and probably hundreds of others. That said, I could, like you, provide personal experiences with example after example of individual and collective incompetence. For example, regulatory enforcement totally unfamiliar with the regulations. 6 years ago, the EPA sent a contract inspector to my business. He spent 6 days reviewing my response plan, then, attempted to issue a citation because a particular section was "out of place". He apparently wasn't on the mailing list as what was formerly required to rest behind the second tab was to be moved to the fourth tab. Multiple mailings, regional conference calls, and finally an onsite with the old requirement. Disregard the ridiculous burdens on business, and be honest with the consumer who ultimately funds the businesses compliance efforts. Government is NOT private industry; therefore TAXPAYER expectations for effective and responsive government will probably remain just a dream.
my words -- They, the Democrats, controlled the House from January 2007 until 01/05/2011 (47 days ago), still control the Senate, and are on the lap of the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. They, the people elected by the Democrat voters, abdicated their responsibility to build a budget.
your words -- Gee, and I thought we were going to see real leadership, responsibility and accountability from the Republicans. Instead of doing anything useful, they are trying to shut down Planned Parenthood and NPR. That's going to make a huge difference to the deficit.
more your words -- but lots of little $1M will add up across the government.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 9:25:47 PM
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That is so funny ... who is making sweeping statements ... you are.
They are not responding to calls because they are understaffed? Oh yeah ... that is why the voice mail says I do not return calls after 3:30 because I leave at 4pm. So over worked ... It is 9:24pm right now in Atlanta, and I just got home and left the house at 6:15a this morning.
I have never hear of companies giving a week or two off for Christmas ... people take vacation then because it is not busy.
But your funniest statement was Government employees trying to call the private sector and it is frustrating ... don't forget the government work for the people ... they are and should never forget that and are there to service the tax paying public. That is why they call the public servants.
Hound ... you are out of touch with reality ... you were in the government machine too long. Just walk in to a DMV or a state or federal building like the IRS and what a waste of man power. Most smart people would not work for the government.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
we are seeing leadership
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Date:
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2/21/2011 9:36:45 PM
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The republicans were elected to cut spending ... the people said enough is enough, $61b is like spitting in the wind ...
the dems make a big sink and come back with a $41b cut in the senate. This is pocket pool. We need drastic cuts as I said ... we need whole departments shut down and done away with and other budgets scaled way back.
As I and others have been saying ... it is not a tax problem it is a spending problem. Even with the Bush tax cuts the deficit was shrinking and headed back to a surplus until the dems took over congress and started writing checks.
We need a much, much smaller federal government and get them off the back of people, business and the states.
We can start with term limits and stop the career politicians and start working for the people.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/21/2011 9:50:30 PM
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"You aren't going to change government".
Be careful with statements like that. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the ENTIRE government could be replaced. May be a stretch, but look at what is happening in the middle east....please don't think it couldn't happen here. I don't think it will, but the possibility is there.
Unlike you, I have lived in both the Government (22 yrs USAF) and civilian (21 yrs defense contracting) worlds, and have a spouse who has spent many, many years in the private sector. I witness the Government...DoD civilians almost daily. Promotions based on the number of inhales and exhales cripples efficiency. My main Government customer has finally realized and agrees that he works for a very sick organization. Why? Because they are Government. They don't have a profit motive. They are the epitome of the Civil Service Rocket....it won't work because you can't fire it. If they were a civilian organization they would have gone bankrupt within three years of their creation. Their overhead rates are astronomical.
As I have said before there are exceptional Civil Servants....and I believe you are one...and have also stated in past posts that I have been honored to serve with some Civil Servants whose dedication to duty matches and surpasses most of their uniformed counterparts. Same applies to the Navy organization I support now. Problem is that they, then and now, are the exception.
And on one last note, although most of my work has been for the DoD, I have also supported other federal departments (DHHS, TSA). I was appalled that, without fail, the FIRST consideration for ANY proposed action was political. Mission accomplishment came in a dismal second. Really sad.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/22/2011 8:09:47 AM
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What I hear you saying is that you had a problem with the EPA. One person in the EPA?
I've dealt with State, Treasury, FBI, CIA, Commerce, VA, IRS, Energy. Have I met people that I thought were incompetent? Yes. Jerks? Yes. But those few people don't make up the whole. From what I have heard from other people, the EPA must be the worst agency in the whole federal government.
For every one jerk I've dealt with, I've worked with another 50 people who were committed, intelligent and dedicated.
Just about like my experience with private industry. When I was working with technology security, I actually had private industry people come into my office to discuss their vague license request. They thought they wanted to work with a foreign company in a sensitive technology area -- what did they want to discuss? They didn't know. Well, what do you think you want to talk about? "don't know". Really, are you planning to go sit in their conference room with nothing to talk about? NO COMMON SENSE. (BTW, the correct answer is that one starts with what they know they will discuss -- the very basis, and amend the license as the discussions develop)
Or the company that signed a contract to build a specialized tank for an Asian country -- a PRODUCTION contract, for an item that they had never built. It "looked" like it would work on paper. It didn't. The foreign country was pretty upset when it didn't work. Came to the USG looking for help. Almost an international incident. USG bailed them out.
My point is that not everyone that works for private industry is productive, smart and
committed. Not everyone that works for the government is a lump. I had numerous offers to move to private industry over the years.
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Of course,the government could change in the manner of other countries. Of course it could.
I just don't think the ability to be fired at whim is what makes for an effective government. And don't forget, government employees can be fired. And I've not seen an example, at least in Washington, where people were promoted based on length of service. Yes, I'm sure it happens, but I'm not sure how frequently. What I have seen is ineffective people being marginalized. Do I agree with that approach? No.
Based on my experience, the biggest change I would make it to replace ineffective managers. I've worked for far too many senior managers who were afraid to make a decision, afraid to confront the bureaucracy. And yes, fear to confront employees.
The government does not have an effective career track for managers -- instead, usually the best Action Officer gets promoted into management, without regard for their ability to deal, direct and motivate people. In my next to last job before I retired, I replaced a man who had been in the same job for 17 years... and his Deputy had been in the same job for 19 years. I was brought in to breathe new life and to make the office effective. It was surprisingly easy, the people were so hungry for leadership. (and I did clear out 5-6 people who had withered on the job. Didn't like the changes and they retired)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
BTW Hound
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Date:
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2/22/2011 8:43:14 AM
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If you have not heard of companies closing 2 weeks at Christmas, I assume you have never worked for a company that actually produced something. It's common practice.
I'm not out of touch. And no, the government is not in servitude to the public. It is a regulatory body. It is paid to develop and enforce regulations that supposedly serve the best interests of the US population on the whole. I can easily see the problem you are having working for the government. It's your attitude. I think if you modified your attitude, you might find your dealings much easier. It sounds like you need the government much more than they need you. A little respect goes a long way.
As far as government employees leaving at 4 pm. That tells me that they are at work at 7 am. So you feel that they should be there until 9 at night, just in case you decide to call? These are people with families, and like most people today, they are trying to balance family and work. It's why they invented flextime. Not a government construct either. I don't think you are finding a lot of people in private industry that are working until 9 at night either on a regular basis unless they are coming into work much later.
WW, these things you are coming up with are just showing that it is you that is out of touch with reality. I guess you have never been in a management position where you actually managed people instead of just paper.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
You just don't get it
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Date:
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2/22/2011 10:33:12 AM
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You obviously have not worked for a private sector company that has to respect their customers or they go elsewhere. We are the governments customer and we have no choice but to put up with their laziness and inefficency.
As for the shutting down at Xmas ... tell me the comapnies that do this. I worked for 25 years at a fortune 50 manufacturing company and we never shut our manufactiuring or converting operations down ... we had customers and respected their needs and were not selfish enough to say we are shutting down ... why because we knew if we did not meet the needs of our customers, they would find someone lese that would.
We fought to earn and keep our customers every day ... we never took them for granted ... that was our culture and it drove our success as a company ... and it was why we were always the acquiring company of others less successful and grew to a $60 billion powerhouse.
Government employees do not understand that thinking or work ethic, because tax payers have no choice and there is no one to complain to at the government office because they think the same and do nothing anyway.
Tell me the truth ... if your job at the government went away would it really have been a problem. I am sure not ... and it is the point I am making ... there are plenty of cuts, deep cuts that can be made ... and while the worker in the government may think their job is so critical ... it is not. Life will go on.
I would rather keep more of the money I make and have less of these valuable government services so i can make my own choices. I am very capable of that and most people are.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You just don't get it
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Date:
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2/22/2011 1:53:48 PM
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Companies that close down at Christmas -- Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrup Grumman are ones that readily come to mind. Some people in the headquarters still work, but technically the company is shut down so there is no one to engage in a technical discussion with.
Was my job critical? Only if we don't want all our advanced and sensitive military technology shared with China, India and other countries that target US technology. And no, companies are not able to make this determination on their own. Things like advanced night vision, fully integrated electronics for aircraft, some very sensitive composite and stealth technologies, plus things liked armed predator. Companies are profit driven and will sell everything this week to push the bottom line; then they'll complain that the USG doesn't support them with subsidies like the Europeans do.
But WW, it is pointless for us to continue this discussion. You have already made up your mind that everyone working for the government is some kind of 2nd rate person. If you and others want to believe that, then have at it. Doesn't change what I know, and it certainly doesn't make any difference to me.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
You just don't get it
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Date:
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2/22/2011 3:38:35 PM
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I agree it is pointless ... but what is funny is the majority if not all the companies you listed are government and military contractors. They can get away with shutting down since what is a few more weeks of not working at the federal government when very few are ever working. i know you were the exeception .... but I would bet when you left, there was not a long transition for the next person they put in to warm your desk chair.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You just don't get it
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Date:
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2/22/2011 4:53:26 PM
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No there wasn't. No one is irreplaceable and when someone starts thinking they are, they need to get a grip on reality.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Finally
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Date:
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2/22/2011 5:16:13 PM
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Something we agree on 100%. But this whole discussion started that there could be far deeper cuts than $61b. i still say that is true and whole depts gone or others cut deeply without missing a beat.
I obviously do not know all the details around your old job, but what you described, while it sounded important and something I agree with, many companies find ways around that ... and the enemy finds a way of getting what they need or want through other countries or sources. that does not mean we should make it even easier and allow it ... but we can't and never will prevent bad things getting in the wrong hands.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Finally
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Date:
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2/22/2011 5:32:30 PM
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Not 100%, but we certainly don't have to make it easy for them either.
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