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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Cheney 3, Obama 0??
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Date:
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5/19/2009 10:47:39 PM
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Looks like the Messiah's ill conceived idea of closing Gitmo is unraveling. Harry Reid says no to detainees coming to the U.S. Other Dems considering withholding funding. Our European allies will only take at most 1 or 2 each. The only country that will gladly take them is Yemen and as we have seen with past terrorists returned there they will end up back on the battle field. We might as well give them an AK-47, several thousand rounds of ammo and drop them in the mountains of Afghanistan. At least we will know when and where they will get back into the fight.
This is another example of why we can't trust liberals with our national defense....... I await the usual apologists trying to explain away/defend incompetence.
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This is why we should never have opened Gitmo in the first place. It was an ill-conceived idea from the beginning. There was never any real plan about what to do with them beyond locking them up.
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
Hound.......
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Date:
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5/20/2009 8:52:00 PM
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You meant to say 'used Gitmo' rather than 'opened Gitmo' didn't you....since Gitmo Navy base has been there a long time? It's been there at least every since Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson made that great movie ...... :-}
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
You are right.
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Date:
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5/20/2009 9:38:47 PM
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I should have said used.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
A few things to think about
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Date:
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5/20/2009 10:46:41 PM
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As Americans are we proud that our nation has taken civilians, some of them US citizens, into custody and holds them indnfinitely without charge, without an attorney, without contact with family and without judicial review?
Are we disturbed that most of the original Gitmo detainees have already been determined to be of no danger afterall and released without so much as a "sorry to ruin your life but we just screwed up"?
How is it possible our US prisons are OK for holding the Uni-bomber, Ted Manson, the Okla. City bomber, and thousands of the lowest form humanity one can imagine but are not strong enough to safely confine an few dozen accused Islamic terrorist?
If the America of our our parents and grandparents was able to survive with hundreds of thousands of German, Italian and Japanese POW's held in barbed-wire stockades all across rural America in 1943-46, shouldn't today's America be able to survive a tiny fraction of that number in solitary at a maximum security prison?
And, does it not make some sense to get rid of one of the Terrorist's strongest recruiting aids.....Gitmo?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
GF you make no sense (nfm)
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Date:
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5/21/2009 8:00:36 AM
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Answers below
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Date:
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5/21/2009 9:39:46 AM
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As Americans are we proud that our nation has taken civilians, some of them US citizens, into custody and holds them indnfinitely without charge, without an attorney, without contact with family and without judicial review?
Perhaps you could list for us the enemy combatants in Gitmo that are U.S. citizens. Perhaps you can explain to us from the Geneva convention what the rights are of enemy combatants that do not wear a uniform. The fact is this is the most logical place for them, they are very well taken care of (much better than they deserve) and they do not ever deserve the same rights as U.S. citizens to due process.
Are we disturbed that most of the original Gitmo detainees have already been determined to be of no danger afterall and released without so much as a "sorry to ruin your life but we just screwed up"?
As with any war there are civilian casualties and errors made with respect to separating enemy combatants from civilians, especially when the enemy intentionally tries to mask themselves as civilians. Read some history books from WWII and some of the books coming out today about our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan and you will see a vastly different perspective. Today we go out of our way, and dramatically increase risk to our soldiers, to protect civilians. We have nothing to apologize for. An besides, a significant number of these innocent, peace loving people that you are so concerned about were later killed in battles with Coalition soldiers. Yes, mistakes are made but not in one direction.
How is it possible our US prisons are OK for holding the Uni-bomber, Ted Manson, the Okla. City bomber, and thousands of the lowest form humanity one can imagine but are not strong enough to safely confine an few dozen accused Islamic terrorist?
Because unlike the Islamofascists, nobody is going to try to free the unibomber, Ted Manson (whoever that is), etc. If you want them so badly offer to put them up in your house.
If the America of our our parents and grandparents was able to survive with hundreds of thousands of German, Italian and Japanese POW's held in barbed-wire stockades all across rural America in 1943-46, shouldn't today's America be able to survive a tiny fraction of that number in solitary at a maximum security prison?
See the point above, and besides, the vast majority of these people were U.S. citizens that were loyal to this country. Trying to compare these peaceful people that were unfortunately and wrongly denied their rights and locked up by a DEMOCRAT president and enemy combatant Islamofascist terrorists in Gitmo is beyond ridiculous and barely worth the effort of this reply.
And, does it not make some sense to get rid of one of the Terrorist's strongest recruiting aids.....Git
This is by far the most inane point in your post. Let's revisit history for you since you must spend all your free time watching Jerry Springer re-runs. World Trade Center bombing 1993 - no Gitmo, Khobar Towers 1996 - no Gitmo, USS Coles 1998 - no Gitmo, bombings in London and Spain - no Gitmo, the murder of 3,000 innocent Americans in 2001 - no Gitmo. You see Archie, the Islamofascists terrorists had no problem recruiting before Gitmo ever existed. What you fail to comprehend is Gitmo is not a cause, it is an effect. You read too many nonsensical liberal talking points.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Yet another reason for Gitmo
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Date:
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5/21/2009 1:09:36 PM
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Look carefully at the group that was recently arrested in New York wanting to blow up synagogues and use Stinger missiles to shoot down aircraft. Three of the four alleged terrorists were radicalized in prison. And yet Archie wants to send these hardened Islamofascists to our prisons. Sure they will be in solitary until then some ACLU lawyer will sue decrying their loss of rights and the next thing you know they will be in the general population spreading Allah's message of jihad on prisoners that will then be released from prison to terrorize.
Cheney is right. Not only is the Messiah maligning dedicated professionals that saved thousands and potentially tens of thousands of lives in Los Angeles because they used waterboarding but he is making us less safe. As Cheney pointed out, the Messiah is wrapping recklessness in a cloak of self righteousness and innocent people are going to pay the ultimate price for his fecklessness and incompetence.
What say you Archie? Ready to make more home grown terrorists?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Yet another reason
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Date:
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5/21/2009 2:12:54 PM
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Recent Pentagon report indicated that 1 of every 7 prisoners released from Gitmo have been documented to have rejoined the fight against our soldiers. What that means is that of the 500 released over 70 were documented to have gone back to killing our soldiers. I am sure that is a low estimate as it is only those documented to have rejoined the fight. Which of our sons, daughters, fathers or mothers do you want to sacrifice to be able to apologize to terrorists?
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Not proud but dam glad..
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Date:
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5/21/2009 3:28:50 PM
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...they did!!!
If a few innocent (being a relative term)"citizens" have to be inconvienienced to save the life on just one TRULY innocent American, then he!! YES!! As far as I am concerned every one of them can ROT IN HELL, or GITMO, which ever comes first.
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| Name: |
Council Roc Doc
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| Subject: |
Yet another reason for Gitmo
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Date:
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5/21/2009 3:43:55 PM
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Boy, did Oboz0 get b-slapped today for his recklessness and attempts at criminalizing a previous administrations policies. Archie, you need to read what the adults in charge did over the past 8 years to keep you, me and our families safe. Cheney's speech today to the AEI was long overdue and puts in complete perspective the hazards of fighting a war where we apologize first and act second. The reaction of libs like Chrissy M, O'Donnell, Betzell etc prove that his words struck a cord they didn't like. To make it worse, the speech received international exposure.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Video of Cheney Speach
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Date:
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5/21/2009 4:24:27 PM
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Only 8 minutes of it, but 8 GREAT minutes!!
URL: Cheney
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/21/2009 5:37:31 PM
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I think that Cheney made some excellent points. We do have to be careful about revealing intelligence sources -- that is the primary reason most of it is classified.
If they only used Waterboarding on the top 3 high potential prisoners, then I'm prepared to live with that if it provided real time, actionable intelligence.
The Bush Administration deserves credit for what they did after 9/11. They plussed up the intelligence community in a meaningful way. They aggressively went after electronic communications. They plussed up border surveillance. I'm willing to have the government listen into my phone conversations if it means that they catch terrorist planning.
My only problem with Gitmo is that there doesn't appear to have been a strategy for what to do with those we captured. And MM is right, I read the same thing about the number that go back to their terrorist groups when they are released. So, what do you do with them? I don't know.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/21/2009 7:49:14 PM
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One other thing the Bush administration doesn't get nearly the credit they deserve is in arms reduction. There was nuch hoopla about them abandoning arms control talks but they were exactly right in doing so. What they did instead of talk, talk, talk is they unilaterally reduced our stockpile from over 6,000 to around 2,200 warheads. They also implemented a program to significantly reduce stockpiles in former Soviet countries at our cost but also greatly enhancing our safety as these are the arms that have the greatest potential to fall into the wrong hands or cause local contamination as they age and are not cared for. They get zero credit for that with the mainstream media and they should.
Unfortunately, Obama has decided to drag a bunch of cold war leftist dinosaurs out of hibernation to start arms control negotiations that never accomplish anything except bolstering others with no reduction in arms. Another example of why we can't trust Dems with our defense.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Arms Control
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Date:
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5/21/2009 8:19:57 PM
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Agreements are a waste of time. None of the agreements have any teeth. It's a waste of time.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/22/2009 12:07:26 PM
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I heard one of our sainted senators today say that the detainees will be fine in a 'supermax' prison since no one has ever escaped from one. Excuse me, but if we are just going to continue to keep them locked up, why not stay at GITMO. It is a state of the art facility and no one has escaped from there either. The difference is they can't 'radicalize' the general population like they could here.
Oh and the brilliant pol also said if we didn't have a prison to hold them, we could build one. What a joke of 'leadership' we have.
Here is my plan:
Take them all and set them free in the mountains of Afghanistan. They have a choice, all the food and water they can carry, OR, and AK47 and all the ammo they can carry. Let them leave in two different directions. Food and water guys one way, AK's the oppisite. Then a well place squad of special forces can teach them what fighting the good ole USA will bring.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/22/2009 8:30:44 PM
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I've kinda wondered about the wisdom of moving them from one prison to another too. Maybe we could build a special "wing" on supermax to house them...
Just another issue that makes my head hurt to think about.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Yet another reason for Gitmo
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Date:
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5/23/2009 3:25:19 PM
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And guess what? All 4 will be charged, indicted, and tried in an American Court under American jurisprudence before an American judge with an American attorney and an American prosecutor. Evidence will be presented by the state and defense and an American jury will determine their fate. Sounds like the constitutional American way to me. You would prefer the "Cheney" way I suppose?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/23/2009 3:49:15 PM
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Some of them have been released and shown up in terrorists groups. Some of them weren't terrorist until they were confined without charge and without access to attorneys, judicial review or family contact. If it was an innocent MM who had been picked up off the street and so treated I wonder what his reaction would be upon release. Hound is right, we got into this mess without thorough forethought as to the the consequences or an (here comes that overused word again) "exit" strategy. The USA with its own actions has given the terrorist their strongest recruiting tools Gitmo being only one. I think it has been said "You shall reap what you sow".
BTW, don't tell me that we only confined those with substantial evidence of terrorist activity against them. If that were so why is it that more than half of the Gitmo detainees have already been released because it was determined they were not terrorists after all. Operative words, "Were not", they probably are now!
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/23/2009 5:02:18 PM
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Please cite your source for the statement "Some of them weren't terrorist until they were confined without charge and without access to attorneys, judicial review or family contact."
Please cite your source for the statement: "The USA with its own actions has given the terrorist their strongest recruiting tools Gitmo being only one."
I will cite you one fact in support of the methods used to date: There have been no more attacks on US soil since 9/11.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/23/2009 5:16:51 PM
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It is impossible to know whether Bush/Cheney Efforts suceed. We can only know if they fail.
If some of the "terrorists" weren't actually terrorists why in the name of heaven did we let them go.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/23/2009 5:19:34 PM
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Oh
Re: Source of "recruiting tool".....Colin Powell, Lindsay Graham, John McCain.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/23/2009 5:53:28 PM
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No, a credible source to back up your statements. I don't believe you can argue with the one I made.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Yet another reason for Gitmo
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Date:
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5/23/2009 5:55:37 PM
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Crimes committed on US soil usually are. What is your point?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/23/2009 11:50:47 PM
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I did. Can't you read?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/24/2009 9:35:13 AM
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OK, I went back and re-read your two posts. I'll give you one of two. I am curious, though, as to why you come across as so angry all the time.
And, as one who served for 22 years, I am very comfortable knowing why I served. You really need to lighten up a little bit. Some of us who did serve could really be insulted by your assertion that maybe we don't know or have forgotten. You will never know whether you have forgotten because you did not.
What you and some others simply don't realize (or accept) is that it is a cold, cruel world out there and some folks do not understand anything other than brute force. I would like to believe that we could address this situation and our enemies with logic and reason, but that simply doesn't work when we are dealing with an illogical and unreasonable foe. They understand the rule of the sword, not of words. Would you rather we just behead them as they do us?
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Nope
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Date:
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5/27/2009 6:33:00 PM
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They are U.S. citizens and have the right to the court system. I am consistent in my beliefs and they are Constitutionally sound.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Good Speech
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Date:
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5/27/2009 6:41:30 PM
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Now where is your evidence that they became terrorists after being falsely imprisoned? I think you just made that up. Just one more example of a liberal that believes so much that just isn't so.
Again, I have demonstrated factually and irrefutably that there were plenty of terrorist attacks prior to ever using Gitmo to detain unlawful combatants. They do not deserve the right to legal representation under our Constitution and they do not deserve any other rights under the Geneva Convention. All this is clear to any honest, informed person. There has never been a problem recruiting Islamofascists because they hate America and want to destroy it. Leftist, hate America types are the ones that made Gitmo an issue.
As for them being wrongly detained, I ask you to re-read my post above as it clearly states that in the fog of war mistakes are always made and sometimes innocent people are harmed. Your use of a typical liberal tactic, to wit, stating something outrageous that no one is saying and then disputing it, will simply not work here.
I never said that and I never would so please stop making things up just to attempt to support your ill-informed position.
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