Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Patriot has died
Date:	10/18/2021 1:54:25 PM

I'm mourning over the loss of Colin Powell, the man who should have been the first Black President.  If not for his wife's concerns for his safety, he probably would have run.  

Best I can say is that I once saw him in the hall in the Pentagon.  But the OJCS staff I worked with both respected and admired him.  And when he went to State, they loved him.  He had the ability to bring people together.  He provided leadership at State, which was sorely lacking.  He got crossways with Rumsfelt and Cheney, because they were in cahoots with the neo-cons, who thought by invading Iraq they would establish a democracy in Iraq and then have a gateway to Syria.  Powell knew it was foolish and fought against them - remember he famously told GWB that "you break it, you own it", but in the end, he saluted and made that famous speech at the UN, based on false intel.  Powell knew the intel was severely lacking and had been "manufactured" by the Doug Feith cell in the Pentagon to support the invasion of Iraq.  He knew that Saddam Huessin posed no threat.  Still, Rumsfelt and Cheney shut Powell out, and Bush was left with a legacy of stupidity.  

Powell loved this country and did everything he could to serve it.  And now he is gone.  He died from COVID, even though he was vaccinated, but he had an underlying health condition of Multiple Myeloma, which is a kind of blood cancer.  But too many people are focused on why he died to suit their purposes, when they should be focused on the Patriot he was.  Towards the end of his life, he said he didn't want to be associated with either political party - and would vote for the person. So he supported both Republicans and Democrats, but I think he felt after the GWB fiasco, there was no room for him any longer in the Republican party.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Patriot has died
Date:	10/18/2021 3:17:09 PM

Lot to admire about Colin Powell, especially given he was a geologist like yours truly.  :-)  As for thinking he should have been our first black President I don't think he would have won the primaries and been the nominee.  He was out of step with many issues important to GOP primary voters.  I am also dubious he would have attracted a lot of African American votes but you never know.

I am still unconvinced the WMD issue was some nefarious plot and not a basic intelligence failure but I suppose it's possible.  No doubt Iraq had WMD as it was well documented that they used them on the Kurds.  But whether they still did when the invasion happened is questionable.  There was lots of evidence of WMD collected post invasion but they never found the smoking gun so to speak, i.e., stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons.  Whether they were moved into Syria prior to the invasion or not, while possible, has never been proven.  Either way, Powell did his job as best he could making the case to the U.N. based on the information he was given by the intelligence community.  And yes, he told Bush if you break it you bought it and no, Bush didn't listen.  No one should miss Saddam but I think we now know that in Muslim controlled countries trying to modernize them with western liberal, democratic 20th century values is a fools errand.  They are still stuck in the 6th century.

His late in life decision to leave the Republican party could hardly have surprised anyone given he only seemed to endorse Democrat candidates for political office.  Long before he officially left the GOP he was not a Republican.  Sorry to see him succumb to COVID complications despite being vaccinated.  Having cancer left him with little in reserve to fight an infection much like many people his age.  For sure he was someone who did and should have gotten the vaccines and should probably have been first in line for the booster although in looking at the data I am not sure a booster suited for the initial variant would have helped, but it certainly couldn't hurt. 

Hope he rests in peace and his family gets through a tough time.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Patriot has died
Date:	10/18/2021 9:59:06 PM

Apparently, he really disliked Donald Trump - and that doesn't surprise me given the differences of their personalities and ambitions.  Powell belonged to a different time and a different set of values.  

I think he would have been elected had he decided to run - I think people respected his integrity and his leadership and felt he got a raw deal by Bush and company.  He was clearly the odd man out on many fronts.  But I don't think people would have voted for or against him because of his race - I think he was generally admired for his integrity and the way he dealt with things. Although he had political savy, I don't think anyone ever regarded him as a politican.

I hope that he enjoyed his post-political life.  They said he had a corvette that liked to drive fast.  

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/18/2021 10:12:38 PM

I know yall say he had to go along but in my opinion if he knew Intel was manufactured he should have stood his ground. And  certainly should not have been PR man for Rumfelds war.  Cheney Rumsfeld and another I cant remember name I never trusted.  Powell convinced me war was right with his speech. When I found out he did not believe it I lost respect for him.  

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	At the time he gave the speech
Date:	10/18/2021 10:27:38 PM

he was not aware that the intell was flawed.  If he had e would not have repeated the lies. 

Powell had a sense of humor too...I remember the story of when he was a recently wed young officer living in officer family housing at Fort Benning.  One Satyuday he was out cutting the grass in genes and a tee shirt.  A Colonel's wife drove by and stopped and rolled down the window and asked ''What does the lady who lives hear pay you to cut her grass?''  Powell replied ''She lets me sleep with her.''

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 8:12:44 AM

If he knew the intel was fake then he is a traitorous coward.....something I simply don't believe and I'm not nearly the fan of Colin Powell that Hound is.  I still believe that what the bipartisan commission determined was true.....it was a failure of intelligence.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 9:10:17 AM

Standing your ground is easier said than done.  He was not satisfied with the intelligence, but he was up against the neo-cons that wanted to go in this direction and Bush was convinced that this was a good idea.  Don't forget that Powell was not in the intelligence community - he was in the diplomatic community - you recall that Tenet claimed it was a "slam dunk".  

He put his reputation on the line and took one for the team.  And then the team shut him out.  It's easy to say in hindsight what he should have done, but at the time, I distinctly remember the atmosphere that we were going into Iraq come hell or high water.  Feith, who was the Deputy Secretary for Defense for Policy went so far as to create his own intelligence cell to cherry pick the intelligence taht supported the invasion.  Even if Powell had stood up and absolutely refused to give that speech at the UN, it would still have happened.  

The environment in Defense is "can do" - and that is the environment that Powell came up in.  You don't say no, can't, or impossible - you find a way.  And Powell went over to the CIA to review the intel.  In the end, he really watered down the speech that they wanted him to give.  According to Powell himself, he regretted making the speech and it pained him.  But he really didn't have a choice - other than to quit and fall on his sword.  

It appears to be a different environment in DC now.  

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 10:20:02 AM

if he knew what you claim he should have had integrity to quit, fall on sword.  Be right and stand by conviction.  Who knows how much weight that would carry for man of his stature.  Rumsfeld be damned.

But as I said I knew y'alls response would be he had to go along.  That is way too much SOP in govt today.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 5:18:53 PM

And if he had fallen on his sword and they did it anyway, what would he have gained? It wasn't just Rumsfeldt - it was Cheney, and Tenet, and USDP(P)' Doug Feith and a host of influential others -neocons- outside of government, but still with a lot of influence.  He didn't know at the time they would end up shutting him out and rendering him ineffective.  He took one for the team, and that was what you were expected to do.

I know it is hard for you to imagine, having never been in government and back at that time, people were less likely to speak out.  You are on the team, you make you case and argue your points, but at the end of the day, the President is the "decider" and you are expected to execute his decision.  The people around at that time hand been in and out of government for most of their adult lives and they wielded just as much power and influence as Powell.  And Powell's personality wasn't one to tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.  

He did a lot for the State Department - got their computers updated, encouraged and inspired the work force.  They loved him and he listened to them.  Most appointees only listen to their own people that they bring with them, and shut the career people out.  Powell gave them a voice.  

In the years since I have been retired, I have sensed a change, where people are more willing to speak out.  But it wasn't that way when I worked there and I doubt defense has changed that much.  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 6:35:35 PM

LNG, Powell was a military man.  In the military we swore an oath to carry out the lawful orders of our superiors.  We were expected to provide input to our leaders' decisions and once those decisions were made to carry them out.  We were a team, and teams have leaders.  To do otherwise would bring on chaos and defeat.  One subjects self to the overall mission, again as long as what is being done is lawful.

As a counterpoint, the current Vice Chairman of the JCS (yes, Milley's current Deputy), when he was Commander of STRATCOM and had control of the country's nuclear forces, told President Trump that if Trump gave an unlawful order to use nuclear weapons (such as obliterating Lichstenstein with nuclear bombs), that he (STRATCOM Commander) and Trump "would have to have a talk".  Obviously such an order would be unlawful and shoud not be carried out.

As to the other departments, I am not sure that they swear an oath to the same level as those of us subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.  Maybe they should resign if they feel that strongly, although I question what good that would do other than make them feel good about themselves.  If they truly want to effect change or have things done "their way" or ways acceptable to them, I believe they are much more effective working from the inside than as an outsider.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 7:05:33 PM (updated 10/19/2021 7:39:33 PM)

And I argue it needs to change.  

And I give!

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 7:12:38 PM (updated 10/19/2021 7:40:09 PM)

And the culture must   change  and quit giving in to whatever complex is running things currently.....military industrial, pharma, pedophilia,  show box or whatever. 

Yes my anti shows thru clearly.  I would not be able to hide behind the That's what the leaders decided.   Can you spell.court martial

And I give up

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	He should have stood his ground
Date:	10/19/2021 10:28:40 PM

You only get to fall on your sword once.  And then you are dead.  Never forget that the President is the ultimate "decider", no matter who falls on their sword.