Instead of putting new restrictions on the ''right'' to bear arms, New Zealand should follow the advice of the NRA, Donald Trump and most forum members...make sure more Muslims go to prayers packing heat!! Any disagreement?
3/19/2019 8:54:37 AM (updated 3/19/2019 8:56:55 AM)
Personally since I am not a citizen of NZ I have no right to tell them anything about their laws. As our constitutional 2nd amendment right does not extend to NZ I am not sure why you are attempting to apply our rights to the rest of the world.
Now here in America I have no problem with people "packing" in any location- churches, mosques, movies. If you are legally allowed to own a firearm then you should be able to carry it for protection, if the location wants to put up a big sign that says gun free zone - that is their right as well.
If they are a nutter and pull their gun to kill some people - then hopefully the rest of the crowd will pull theirs and there will be one less nutter - and a few rounds is a lot cheaper then housing and feeding a nutter for life.
If you were in a church, sporting event. theater, Trump rally or any where else where there is a large assembly of people and one lone nut hidden somewhere in the crowd pulls a gun and starts shooting would you honestly feel less threatened if as soon as the nut starts shooting 50 or 100 other people pull guns and start shooting? Seriously, think about it.
As someone who does spend time around people with guns - Nope I do not fear people protecting themselves. You do not shoot unless you know your target, what is around it, what is behind it. Standard hunting rules apply.
and FYI went to a church for close to 20 years that allowed firearms on the property and in the church - guess what no one was ever harmed by a gun on the property. Many kept guns in cars to go hunting before and after church, several had CC and did carry. Several cops were often at church in uniform to go to work after church and all were armed.
Now I understand that you fear everything as it relates to guns and that you need to go out into the real world in a bullet proof hamster ball.
From reports I have seen, a mass shooting where there is no armed resistance they average ten casualties. When there is armed resistance they average three!
One thing would help reduce these mass shooting would be to deny the shooter his T V moment in the sun. The nut in New Zealand live streamed his atrocity. I know that asking the media to do something responsibly is a tall order. If they would report the event but never film or name the perp it would rob him of the fame he seeks and to a large portion, the reason! Each of these nuts try to come up with some more horrible than the last to get more air time.
What proves this is that when a T V station, radio station or newspaper recieves a threat they never, never report it because it incites copycats!
3/19/2019 11:32:41 AM (updated 3/19/2019 11:33:38 AM)
why don't you answer my question for a change? While you are at it answer another...if you do ascribe to the notion that many "good guys with guns" is a way to make large assemblies safer, would you also feel comfortable being the FIRST of 50 or 75 "good guys" to draw your piece? Tell the truth now Phil!
Depends on who is closer to the nutter - If I am closer and can stop him then yes I would "pull my piece" If I am 50 yards away and can do not good but stand around with a gun in my hand - nope.
Now you on the other hand would stand around with your thumb stuck somewhere getting shot while thinking "too bad there is no one around to protect me" while watching your friends and loved ones bleed out.
There's certainly no shortage of wannabee cowboys posting here. It's a sure bet that not a single one of you has actually had to confront an active shooter with scores of innocent bystanders nearby. When the police, who are supposedly trained for these scenarios, encounter them, their intended-target hit rate is typically 25% or less, and they tend to hit innocent bystanders on a regular basis. They also have a habit of misidentifying the "good guy with a gun" and shooting him instead, especially when said good guy isn't white. See Hoover, Alabama for a recent example. Ask yourself if you really want to have a gun out in a situation like this when the popo show up. They're at least as likely to take you out as they are to get the "bad guy with a gun."
As for the "lone nutter" fantasy, that's blown entirely out of the water by the gun-totin' nutters who post here. I wouldn't trust a single one of you any further than I can throw you. You provide compelling evidence in favor of universal background checks....
Yup which is why you put the gun away before the POPO shows up and have a discussion with them instead of being dead.
Same thing with active shooters - we have been told by professionals that you put your gun away and dont just wave it around for the cops to see when the arrive. Even if you are nearby a weapon that was used in the crime - you put a trashcan or something over it to make sure you are not mistaken for the target.
You make Archie look smarter.
While you may wish for more "universal background checks" for many of us, I just wish your parents had thought of birth control options.
That's just more evidence of your severe impairment, phil. In your fantasy, the "good guy with a gun" has it ready just in time to take it out, makes a perfect shot at the "bad guy" without killing any innocent bystanders, then times the arrival of the authorities perfectly, ditching his gun in time to avoid being shot by the police. What could possibly go wrong?
Lemme make sure I understand you. Since they have "already become victims," it's OK if the "good guy with a gun" kills some of them? Were you dropped on your head as a child, or did your Mommy say mean things to you?
That's just more evidence of your severe impairment, phil. In your fantasy, the "good guy with a gun" has it ready just in time to take it out, makes a perfect shot at the "bad guy" without killing any innocent bystanders,
Well I have never known a gun that is in the store or locked up at home to be "ready just in time" for anything.
then times the arrival of the authorities perfectly, ditching his gun in time to avoid being shot by the police. What could possibly go wrong?
What could go wrong ? well you could have left it at home, or wait for the "POPO" to show up and count the bodies. As I stated - when the police arrive you do not wave it around, you put it away - in clothing or anywhere else. What was told to us by professionals who do active shooting drills and training was if you are in a room where a gun is put it away, cover it, hide it because the "POPO" is not always the good guy with the gun and are reactionary. Besides usually you do not have to "time the arrival of the authorities" perfectly" because as we saw with the Broward County school shooting the "POPO" was hiding behind the bushes and waited until officers from the next county over showed up to go in, this would leave plenty of time to put it back in its holster.
Lemme make sure I understand you. Since the bad guy with the gun has starting killing "innocent bystanders" you should stand around and become a dead innocent bystander while waiting for the POPO to show up to write the report. Were you dropped on your head as a child, and your Mommy did say mean things to you?
I'm still trying to validate the 25% accuracy rate of our nations first responders and the names of the innocent bystanders that get shot on a regular basis by these brave souls. Dropped on my head and yelled at by my mommy.....so very clever.
His city needs to hire better "POPO" because when they used to allow us to go to the local police range for target practice I am pretty sure they were hitting way more then 25% - most in my area were certified expert with their sidearms.
And a quote from the article: "The Rand study looked at NYPD firearm-discharge reports from from 1998 through 2006. Some of the findings point in Watts’ favor, while other data refutes her point.
"Hit ratios were below 30 percent for gunfights (18 percent) (IOW, not at all the same as firing ranges) and from long ranges (23 percent from more than seven yards away)."
It's amazing how being shot at reduces the accuracy of fire of even the best-trained shooters. The notion that the general public could do better is nothing short of absurd. You guys have taken a page from Individual 1 and are giving yourselves far too much credit.
Yes, being shot at and lots of other things affect accuracy, most "POPO" do not train for active shooters - but by your argument you should leave your protection at home because you are not as good as the "POPO" and wait for someone else who is going to probably miss anyway or worse shoot you and others who are innocent.
That would be like leaving your condoms elsewhere (or dont bother to purchase at all and leave it at the store) and waiting for someone else to come by and knock up everyone in the house but your wife / GF because they had bad aim and write a report about it.
Plus I never claimed to better then the "POPO" but if I am 5 - 10 feet from the bad guy and can slow him down or stop him while waiting 10-15 minutes for the "POPO" to show up since we all know they are just not stationed outside when active shootings happen.
According to American Police Beat, the average response time for an emergency call is 10 minutes. Atlanta has the worst response time with 11 to 12 minutes and Nashville comes in at a lightning speed of 9 minutes.
The Department of Justice, with their statistical prowess, reports that the best response time is 4 minutes and the worst over 1 hour. Interpretation? If you live in an upper income area you probably are privy to the 4 minute response time, while middle to rural areas will see a much longer response time.
That translates to you being robbed/injured/maimed/raped/murdered and waiting for an additional 2 and a half minutes for the police to arrive. The truth of the matter is that the police will almost always arrive AFTER the crime has happened and the criminal has gone.
According to a 2013 FBI study, almost 70% of gun-related active assailant events last just five minutes. A third of those last less than two minutes.
33.5% of violent crime the response time is 11 minutes to 1 hour. 36% of aggravated assault 11 minutes to one hour. So between the FBI study above that most events last 5 minutes or less - you have a 3 in 4 chance of the "POPO" showing up well after it is over.
You may recall that in one church shooting here in the U.S., a man with a gun chased down the shooter and is credited with saving a lot of lives (although many were dead already in the church). Just imagine if that man with the gun had been inside that church when it got started. He could have saved many more lives. People who are anti-gun always want to convince everyone else that making it a gun free socieity is the solution to the problem of mass shootings. Perhaps they could explain why, in previous generations where there was viturally no restrictions on guns or gun sales, there were no mass shootings. Is there more mental illness? More hate? Guns are not the problem - we have a societal problem that no one wants to address, other than to ban guns. And the sad part is that you will never legislate behavior with restrictions. Look how many people are killed in accidents in our local area when they are thrown from their car and weren't wearing their seat belts, but seat belts are the law. Drugs are against the law, but every week there are arrests for drug crimes. Car accidents kill people, but no one is suggesting cars be banned. If you consider the population of our country, mass shootings are few and far betwen in the overall population. If the media didn't immediately run there and blow it up, there would be no calls to ban guns.
I'll take my chances any day with a good guy with a gun, even if I am shot accidently. Because I will know that he didn't mean to shoot me, but the bad guy with the gun is definitely out to get me.
People underestimate the range of a pistol. With a bit of training it is quite easy to hit a man sized target at 50 to 100 yards. Hint: focus your eyes on the sights.
Have a target pistol that when I went to the range often was 3 out of 5 shots hitting a nickel sized target at 100 yds - but again it was not an active shooter situation and the target was not shooting back - and the pistol is designed for accuracy.
if you ever are that guy standing near the shooter who manages to take him out then I hope you are able to get your piece back out of view quickly enough so it is unseen by the time to other "good guys with guns" start to work. I really hope so, but just in case please always keep your insurance premiums paid up!
if one "good guy with a gun" is on the scene of a shooting he might do a real service. That is not what the NRA and the gun nut crowd want! They want everybody at any event that wants to carry a weapon to have the right to be carrying a loaded weapon pretty much anywhere. If a shooting starts that is not going to make the event safer...it is going to make it an even more horrific tragedy!!
Ever wonder why loaded weapons are not allowed at NRA convention events? Just asking.
BTW: when u start to talk about believing being shot by a good guy with a gun is less a tragedy than being shot by a bad guy you really start to sound silly! Why not try to make it less likely that you will be shot at all? Like it or not, it has worked in Australia for the last 23 years!
Why not praise Phil for being able and willing to intervene in an extremely dangerous situation? Let's hope that none of us ever have to face an "active" shooting at church, but I bet if we did the first place we would look for you would be hiding under a "pew".
Yup 23 years. 1996 shooting that banned guns in Austrailia. shooting in 1998 5 killed, I see several mass shootings listed since 1996 - while they were not "35 killed 24 wounded" they were still killed by guns. I also see death by axes, arson, blunt instrument, ran over by cars, bashed, strangled and stabbed, drowning.
7 shot in 2018 - well after the gun ban.
Nutters are going to kill people - They just move on to whatever is nearby. Maybe we can pass a law to make it illegal to kill someone - that should fix it, just like prohibition stopped alcohol and the war on drugs.
Peter Shoobridge cut the throats of his four daughters whilst they slept then took his own life with a rifle after cutting off one of his hands with an axe.[15]
Robert Farquharson deliberately drove his car into a dam drowning his three sons.[21]
Annerley arson
February 2006
Annerley, Qld.
3
Errol Graham Hayes set fire to the Annerley home shared by former lawyer Theresa Marchetti, their son Joshua and her then partner Mark Christensen killing all three.[22][23]
Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage twenty customers and eight employees of a Lindtchocolate café located at Martin Place for 16 hours. The NSW Police Tactical Operations Unit shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the exchange, one person was hit by police bullet fragments, causing accidental death.
Stabbingattack and Familicide. Eight children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. Thirty-seven-year-old woman also found injured. The woman, Raina Mersane Ina Thaiday, was later charged with the murder of the children, seven of whom were hers, plus her niece.[25]
Darren Patrick Glover murdered three people by setting fire to a disused factory in Footscray. He killed his former partner Tanya Burmeister, 32, her boyfriend David Griffiths, 39, and Ms Burmeister's 15-year-old daughter Zoe, who were squatting in the old Kinnears rope factory in March 2017.[26]
A murder-suicide, with three adults and four children killed. A grandfather shot his four grandchildren at their home, his daughter, his wife, and then himself.[27]
Ellenbrook, W.A. Murders
15 July 2018
Ellenbrook, Western Australia
3
Murder of a mother, son and daughter allegedly by Teancum Vernon Petersen-Crofts who was remanded to secure Frankland Centre unit at Graylands Hospital.[28]
Five people were fatally stabbed or bashed in a house in the suburb of Bedford near Perth. The victims were two women, one girl aged 3, and two girls aged 18 months.[29]Should not be confused with the 1879 Cape Bedford Massacre against aboriginal people.
The only time I have ever had to unholster my weapon with the intent to kill if necessary was when a local thug was beating his GF who was pregnant and threated to "Pistol whip my azz" I called 911 told them I was in the street and armed and not on his property. Told him that I was armed and if he approached me I would do what was necessary, that the police was on the way. He ran into the woods, cops found him after about 2 hours hiding at his cousin house. After telling 911 I was armed and he was beating his GF 10 cop cars showed up - 45 minutes later. When one officer started to approach me I removed the clip, opened the chamber and placed the clip and round on the ground at my feet and showed him the gun was safe - The officer told me that the perp was a known menace and has had the cops called on him several times weekly for about 3 years ranging from theft, assault to drug dealing. The officer said that they had waited longer hoping he would get shot and they would not have to deal with him again.
GF did not press charges cause they were in "love", but when he beat up his grandmother a few months later she did and had him locked up for a few months.
Chances of being in a mass shooting is very small. Chances of being able to save your own life or others is much higher in 1 on 1 or small groups, chances of Archie being wrong - 100%, chances of Archie admiting he is wrong - 0%
OTOH, you appear to be semiliterate. Calling you an idiot would be an insult to the intellectually-challenged. They were born that way. You had to put in effort to get the way you are....
"The only time I have ever had to unholster my weapon with the intent to kill if necessary was when a local thug was beating his GF who was pregnant and threated to "Pistol whip my azz""
Sounds like you live in a really nice neighborhood. Ever thought of moving?
"Chances of being in a mass shooting is very small."
In your case, chances of matching the number (singular/plural) of the subject with the correct case of the verb are small....
WOW 30 people killed in shootings in Australia between 1996 and may 4, 2018 when the WORST MASS MURDER in Australia since 1996 occured (in a murder/suicide a farmer killed himself, his wife, daughter and 4 grandchildren). Yes sir, tell the families from Sandy hook, Orlando, Las Vegas, and Fort Lauderdale that it is Australia with the gun problem, not us. You really are an idiot if you think that post advances your argument when the Australian reality is put up against the reality of what is happening in America! Give me a break, even taking the population into account we have more gun murders in America in 2 weeks than Australia had had in 23 years!! It ain't rocket science to see they have done something right, but it is obviously politically impossible for the American rightwing to admit it.
Now, if you want to argue that Australia and the US have similar problems with stabbings, arson and hit and run maybe we can agree, but as to gun violence ...fahgid aboud it!
Why should I move - one idiot in a neighborhood is pretty good odds, just like your neighborhood - If you were my neighbor I would probably move because you are the idiot.
awww the grammer/spelling Nazi had to show up because the argument was lost.
The point is that bad people are going to do bad things regardless of the "gun" but lets also look back at the historical data when only one side had a gun with 200 killed, up to 300, 300-1000 - just imagine how different those numbers might look if those aboriginal tribes had guns, instead of rocks and sticks.
Sorry, but the reason they were massacred is becuase they were unable to defend themselves again better armed people. If you like Austrailias gun laws, have you considered moving (to quote JohnDough)?
Massacre of Indigenous Australians. A stockman at Walcha Hut on the Lawson run was warned by Aborigines to release an Aboriginal woman. He refused, and both he and the woman were killed. In retaliation, the settlers shot a large number of Aboriginal men, women and children in what became known as the Hospital Creek Massacre.
Massacre of Indigenous Australians led by commander Charles Hutton as a reprisal raid against Aboriginal resistance to the invasion and occupation of their lands.
Ship travelling from Port Adelaide to Hobart was shipwrecked on the SE coast of South Australia, with all surviving the wreck. The survivors were being guided to safety by the local Narrindjeri people, but were massacred.
Massacre of Indigenous Australians, combined with the introduction of diseases by the British Colonists which also contributed to the heavy losses of the Aborigines. The technical superiority of the Europeans' weapons gave the Europeans an absolute advantage over the Aborigines and, as a result, very few whitesettlers died during the course of the massacres.
Massacre of newly-arrived whitesettlers by Indigenous Australians. In response, "sixty or seventy" Aborigines were massacred by a vigilante party of eleven heavily armed white settlers accompanied by two Aboriginal trackers.[1]
Terrorism, bomb attack on hotel where world leaders were staying. 2 garbage collectors and 1 police officer died.
Party Shooting Spree
18 April 1982
Canley Heights, New South Wales
2
8
Peter Sinfield, his brother Derek Sinfield along with friend Adrian John Mills, armed variously but Peter Sinfield with a rifle, gatecrashed a party and fired several shots that killed two people and severely wounding eight others.
William Patrick Mitchell (Bill Mitchell) murdered Karen MacKenzie and her three children with an axe at their remote rural property in Greenough, Western Australia.
Leonard Leabeater, Robert Steele and Raymond Bassett went on a nine-day rampage resulting in their taking hostages in a siege in a farmhouse at Hanging Rock Station in Cangai.
3/22/2019 11:02:53 AM (updated 3/22/2019 11:08:43 AM)
Awww too funny - It would take me some time with my backhoe to reach the depths you have dug to. How is the core of the earth, I know you were attempting to locate Hell and have a meeting with Satan but I will leave those depths to you.
Most persons carrying a concealed weapon will have a (paralyzing) problem with the first few CRITICAL seconds of an active shooter event. That person will likely not have the courage to put his or her weapon into operation. I know of several CC persons in my congregation who carry, but do not do so with intent. That is to say that they regard their personal weapon as a last resort, self defense option… an act of desperation… IF they can put it into operation.
Those of us who have served in a combat zone, KNOW that feeling. You have to will yourself into those “10 seconds of courage.” In a true pistol fire-fight, you get about 7 extra seconds from that.
ANY person who supposes that they will effectively engage at any distance beyond 8 yards with a pistol is WAY overestimating their ability in a chaotic situation. To do even that… requires practice. The weapon MUST be controlled. In the first three seconds (or less) the weapon must be deployed and a correct sight alignment acquired. Then, the trigger must be sqeezed (not pulled) when the center of mass is on the front post. No “head shots” or “knee shots” or… whatever. Oh… and your target is not standing still.
YOU own the bullets that come out of your weapon.
And YOU might take a bullet for your effort.
This skill is NOT acquired at a table on a pistol range. It is acquired in a training environment to establish skills through repetitive motor training. Your body must KNOW what to do while you are dealing with “fight-or-flight.”
If you have not experienced a fire-fight… you DO NOT KNOW what you will do.
So… in your congregation… there are law enforcement officers, active and retired… and retired veterans (who had to train and qualify on their weapon year-after-year). Some (few) have found their 10 seconds in their lifetime. It is these folks who will rise… and respond correctly… to an active shooter. Everyone else needs to get down on the floor, and… if you have one, lie on top of your CC… finger OFF the trigger… get your 10 seconds… and wait.
It should be about over in those 10 seconds… if your responsible shooters have planned and trained for the event.
In a public setting… DON’T unless you can and/or you have no choice. Any pistol shot more than 8 yards… is reckless endangerment. I do not intend to shoot more than the length of my SUV. If you can’t get into position… don’t start spraying bullets. If the “bad guy” has an AK-47 or AR-15 (or any other long arm) or a shotgun… you are likely not gonna survive showing him your long shot skills.
The reality is MUCH more complicated that my few words.
Fully agree - as I stated standard hunting rules - know your target - what is behind/around etc. Finger off until you intend to actually discharge the round. You do not shoot at a deer in the woods in Alabama with a 30-30 at 150 yards, you have to know yourself, you weapon and your target - I also agree that anyone not trained/experienced in those "10 seconds" should get down, but if I am the last resort between the bad guy and some quantity of death I will take my chance at that time, at worst a few rounds in the ceiling or floor may cause him to stop, think or run when he finds out its not a "gun free zone" and easy targets.
While I do not equate it to having someone shoot at me I have had some run ins with wild hogs that have caused me to have to climb trees quickly and put several rounds into them till they decide to leave or drop - which probably equates more to a nutter with a knife or bat.
I think all too often even with police and the public at large - the suppression fire/pull the trigger till its empty mentality happens in those 10 seconds which is where you get innocents by the good guys, as well as some of the stats of 2-3 rounds out of 10-15 hit the target. Same thing for bump stocks ( which are worthless in my opinion ) or full auto - while those may or may not have a place on the battlefield - spray and pray is not a good way to shoot.
I am not a cowboy with a gun, and I realize that range time when it comes to combat / active shooter gives little to no advantage, but I do have the ability that if I do have to die at the hands of a nutter - I will at least attempt to make it count for something.
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