Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	CIA report
Date:	12/9/2014 12:14:08 PM

noe Dems are apologizing for water boarding terrorists !! The people are nuts--guess they have forgotten innocent lives Lost on 9/11 , beheadings, embassy killings, USS Cole etc etcetera-- makes me want to throw up --I saw a nuke might be the only solution

Name:	Buteye -	Reply
Subject:	CIA report
Date:	12/9/2014 1:02:43 PM

 I fully agree with your post. We don't owe apologies to anyone who played a part in the tragedy of 911. If anything, someone needs to apologize for the Democratic imbeciles in the Whitehouse who are destroying our country and are responsible for the $40,000,000 spent to prepare this report. With the current state of world affairs, how could anyone in their right mind not realize that publishing this report will endanger American citizens around the world?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	CIA report
Date:	12/9/2014 1:15:34 PM

I am conflicted over the contents of the report - not as a member of one political persusian or another - but as an American and a human being.  I was raised to believe in keeping the moral high ground and we were led to believe that there was a moral line that we would not cross in terms of interrogation techniques that were to be used. A lot of the thinking came out of WWII and he Geneva Convention. 

On the other hand, the truth is that under Clinton, we lost a huge amount of human intelligence sources due to decisions made by the Clinton WH.  We had no sources for actionable intelligence, and it was made pretty clear that the prisoners taken were not going to break under normal techniques and we reached a point, at least in some places in the Bush Administration, where we came to believe that the ends would justify the means. There still seem to be conflicting opinions about how much actionable intelligence came about as a result.  But in the wake of 9/11 anger and anguish, I'm not sure that vast number of Americans would really care what happened to these prisoners, particularly if it resulted our being able to avenge our losses.  For me, I don't have a probleme with some of the "enhanced" techniques, but there are others that I find reprehensible (rectal rehydation being one)

It's been pretty clear that we are no longer dealing with what I call the "European/American model" of "civilized warfare" .   We are engaged in warfare with an enemy that will do anything without regard to any sort of moral code we can understand.  Apparently we have increased intelligence sourcs that no one thinks we need these "enhanced" techniques anymore.  But yet, throughout history the CIA has, in a number of instances, gone rogue to accomplish an objective and their actions may not reflect the moral beliefs of most of  America.  Would the majority of Americans agree that beheading of our citizens justify beheading of our enemies at our hands?  I don't think this is necessarily a question that would fall along political lines.   Do we allow them to influence us to lower our moral standards?

I am not in favor of the release of the report at this time.  It will only serve to put more Americans at risk today.  I can't help but believe it is nothing more than poltical theatre and I don't see that it serves any useful purpose.  The information isn't new. 

Name:	lucky67 -	Reply
Subject:	CIA report
Date:	12/9/2014 4:41:57 PM

were in a battle--our enemies have no morals, only a goal to destroy anything not ISlam--we cant play by the old rules or preconceived notions our enemy is inherently good & we can change them

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	CIA report
Date:	12/9/2014 6:02:29 PM

I agree with your statement, but I wonder what happens to the moral edge?  Do we lower ourselves to their standards?

Name:	Lighthouse -	Reply
Subject:	CIA report
Date:	12/9/2014 9:55:20 PM

If we don't become as hard as they are, we are finished as a FREE PEOPLE

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/9/2014 10:51:28 PM (updated 12/9/2014 10:53:30 PM)

This may end up under Hound's post but is aimed at all forum readers...

During the Revolutionary War the Briish often fought IAW the accepted norm for the day.....lined up neatly in row after row out in the open.  The American Revolutionaries didn't follow that paradigm, but hid behind trees, in bushes, or wherever that would get them maximum effect with minimum collateral damage.

During Viet Nam, the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong used tunnels, sappers, and other methods that went beyond "accepted" and/or "expected" methods of fighting.

Now, the enemy of the Untied States has once again changed the "rules" of warfare by involving civilian populations, suicide bombers, beheadings of innocent aid workers, and so forth that we find abhorrent.

Unfortunately we are being faced with an ethical dilemma.  Do we maintain adherence to, until now, accepted norms of behavior in our fight or do we respond in kind?

What value does a "moral" or "ethical" society have if it ceases to exist because it was destroyed by an "amoral" or "unethical" enemy?  How do we reconcile the current brouhaha about "torture" while we use drones to do far more damage (i.e., kill) to our enemies...and at the same time kill innocent civiians who just happened to be in the way?

My opinion is that we do what we have to do to protect our society and way of life. Sometimes we might even have to be the one "pushing the envelope" if it means we minimize future damage or loss of life.  Bottom line is if it is "us" or "them", we must do what we have to do.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 8:58:57 AM

You make a good point.  And I'm not saying that I don't think we should evolve with our tactics and what we consider acceptable with regard to our enemy.  I'm not in the camp that says that if we treat prisoners humanely that our enemies will be encouraged to do the same. I personally don't have a problem with drones.  And I think we are overly cautious about "collateral" damage in a war where you have woman and in some cases children becoming suicide bombers.  I'm in the take no prisoners camp. 

But, the central question that will not likely ever be answered is did these interrogation techniques net us the actionable intel that we sought, and basically gave up the moral high ground to get?  

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 9:09:40 AM

Unfortunately we will most likely never get a straight answer to that question.

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 11:16:05 AM

If 99 out of 100 so called aggressive interrogations failed to yield what the intelligence community labels actionable intelligence, and one interrogation yielded a treasure trove of information that saved American lives, then I have no problem with any and all methods of interrogation of these bast***s.  That is my moral high ground.

Name:	dobrew -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 12:44:09 PM

Amen!!

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 12:58:16 PM

My understanding from multiple sources I have seen quoted over the years is that there is no doubt we received actionable intelligence data from enhanced interrogation, including the name that eventually led us to OBL.  I am with the others here and have no problem with the means used to obtain intelligence from these terrorists.  The point is to save American lives and our goal is protection, not aggression. There is no moral equivalency and nothing we do either gentle or harsh will alter the actions of Islamofascists one iota.  They are single minded in our destruction and the forced conversion of everyone to a false religion.  

I know one thing, this was payback by Diane Finestein  and her cronies in the Senate and any blood shed as a result of this report is on her hands.  They didn't even bother to interview one person involved in the program.....they just made it up to impugn the CIA out of spite.  Absolutely grotesque.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 7:00:26 PM

They didn't make it up, they used cables, memos and other written records to complile it.  It would have been better if they had conducted interviews.  I've seen that a number of former interrogators would like to have been interviewed. I read one article today by a former interrogator who claimed that the worst of the techniques were not discussed in the report.  

It is political theatre, there is not doubt about that.  Diane Finestein continues  to claim that she was never briefed, but the person who conducted the briefing said she was... but if they weren't honest with the Prez, it isn't likely that they told her the complete truth either.  I don't think it served any useful purpose (other than political) to release this now. 

My understand that nothing they got from the enhanced techniques resulted in the capture of Osama Bin Laden.  He was captured a nmber of years after the techniques were stopped and it was likely the result of informants on the ground and/or satellite phots.  But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the structure of Al Queda, and insight into the inner workings of Al Queda came from these sessions.  If you think back to that time, we didn't really know much about Al Queda and how it worked. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 8:21:43 PM

I had read in several places that the identity of the guy that lead us to OBL came from the interrogation of Kaleid Sheik Mohammed from the waterboarding.  Maybe true, maybe not.  But there are tons of people, including several senior officials that have said we got lots of good intelligence from enhanced interrogation.  That's enough for me.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 8:30:55 PM

But they kinda had to say that, didn't they. 

I think one thing they got was the identity of someone that ran message between Bin Laden and other members of Al Quada.  Obviously, they watched him and I believe it led to the first time that they tried to get a hit on Bin Laden, but he got away before the hit.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 9:36:40 PM

Maybe.....but maybe they said it because its true.  I don't think of us knows for sure but I agree with others that if we used those techniques on 100 of those dirtbags and 1 leads to useful info I am all for it.  But that's just me and others could reasonably disagree.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/10/2014 10:24:35 PM

Or reasonably agree.

Name:	Lighthouse -	Reply
Subject:	Morphing of Warfare Revolutionary War til Now
Date:	12/11/2014 3:09:10 PM

AMEN