Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	And now Mississippi
Date:	4/5/2016 5:08:54 PM

Has passed the same law that permits discrimination based on your religious beliefs.  GA was about to, but realized the negative financial implications that would occur if they passed it, so they took it off the table.  I really hope Alabama doesn't do something this stupid.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 12:28:39 PM

On the one hand I am completely sympathetic with people with legitimate religious reasons to not participate in certain activities.  On the other hand you don't want businesses to be able to willy nilly discriminate against someone based on their race, sexual orientation, etc. and be able to use religious exemption laws  So how do you balance legitimate religious objections with equal protection?  Not an easy thing to do and I suspect most of the legislation being proposed will never pass a court challenge.

What bothers me is the people who go out of their way to creat a case against someone.  If there was some bakery that objected to baking cakes for a Catholic wedding I am not going to go out of my way to make a federal case out of it.  I will just take my business somewhere else.  Many of these groups do the opposite.  They call around to find some business that doesn't want their business and then get their 15 minutes of fame.  To me that is reprehensible.  The gay mafia is famous for this tactic.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 7:05:40 PM

My question is when did sexual orientation become the basis of doing business?  Am I now going to have to declare that I am straight before I place an order?  What is different about baking a cake for a straight couple than for a gay couple?  The little statue on the top? So tell the couples (both) that you don't want to put the statue on the top and let the couples handle it themselves?  It's not like a gay couple is wanting an objectionable "graphic" on the cake.  It just smacks of the same kind of discrimination that this country used to know.

Why do they make a federal case of it?  Yes, they could just take their business somewhere else, just like Rosa Parks could have chosen another seat on the bus.  But they make a federal case of it because they want people to know this is going on. I guess at some point you get tired of looking the other way, and not saying anything. 

Regarding religion, I support churches that don't want to perform gay marriages if they are against their religious beliefs, but this other stuff?  No, there needs to be a stop to this.  

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 7:50:27 PM

Not for me!

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 7:59:49 PM

What are the "evangelicals" going to say when a Muslim dry cleaner refuses to serve a jewish family on religious grounds?

What will the "T Partiers" do when a "christian" gun dealer refuses to sell a hand gun to a lesbian?

What will a "conservative Christian" city clerk do when a Wiccan group wants a permit for a concert in a city park in Tupelo?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 8:58:25 PM

And the pharmacist  refuses to sell birth control because she is Catholic and her religion forbids it, and when the Muslim cashier refuses to check out your pork roast because her religion believe that pigs are dirty.  And when the Pakistani with the corner store refuses to sell you a bottle of whiskey because he religion doesn't permit him to consume alcohol?

Wonder what happened to the Amish?  They found a way to live in a world that is an affront to their way of life, and found a way to do business with people who don't believe as they do?  Perhaps it is time for everyone to take a deep breath and think about the Amish. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 9:25:47 PM

Is it legal, right, permitted for a business to not sell its product to a person?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 9:36:30 PM

I can't help you if you don't see how baking a wedding cake for a same sex couple might be morally and religiously objectionable to someone.  To do so may imply some sort of sanction of something that is in direct violation of a persons religious beliefs. I know I would never participate in or even attend such a farce and thankfully my business won't be impacted. But other's are and you want to force them to participate in something they don't believe is right. What gives you the right?

As for churches not being forced to hold same sex weddings, how much do you want to bet the gay mafia will want to force that as well?  You don't get their agenda. They don't want tolerance, they want to force their beliefs on others using the power of government. They want to criminalize opposition to their lifestyle choices. All this perversion and ruining people's lives and livelihood over 2% of the population. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 11:07:39 PM

MM, I think you have gone over the edge.  I have known a lot of gay people in my life, worked with a lot of gay people.  I don't know what you mean about a "gay mafia".  I do know that there are people that want nothing more than to be treated like everyone else and with respect.  I'm not asking anyone to do anything against their religion.  What if I order a cake, but it is going to be eaten by my guests, some of whom may be gay?  Does that person have the moral right to question who I am entertaining to determine whether their religious beliefs will be violated.  Do they have the right to ask me if I am straight or gay every time I order a baked good?  If you suggest that I don't have a right, what right to they have?  Is it okay with you if they post a sign on the door that says "no gays allowed"?  Seems a lot like when there was a time in this country when people had a "right" to say "whites only".  What was their excuse for that one? 

The point is that gay marriage is legal.  And people are hiding behind their religion to justify their prejudices.  Nothing has changed, just the focus has changed.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	This is a tough one
Date:	4/6/2016 11:23:13 PM

As long as it is legal, I don't see any reason why a business person would be unwilling  to sell their product to someone that had a need and the cash to pay for it, without getting their personal prejudices (or religious beliefs, take your pick) into it.  IN the case of a bakery, all they are being asked to do is bake a cake - last time I checked that is what bakeries do.  They are not being asked to participate in the ceremony, they are not being asked to perform the ceremony or even issue the license.  All they are being asked to do is bake a cake, which they are in business to do. Would you support them asking you what your religious affliation was, so they could determine whether baking a cake for you violates their religious beliefs because you are not the same religion as they are?  Where does it end.  Going back to my previous example, how will you feel when the cashier in the store refuses to check out your order, because you are buying pork chops and her religious beliefs preclude her from eating pork.  Should she still be required to check you out, or are you willing to go through 3 checkouts because things you are buying don't conform to 3 separate religious beliefs. 

The problem here is that people are only viewing this from their perspective and not thinking about the shoe being on the other foot.  People can be very self righteous when it is not affecting them, personally.  Nothing has changed since the days of segregation, it's just another group now be singled out. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 8:15:52 AM (updated 4/7/2016 8:40:48 AM)

If you are in the business or position of serving the "PUBLIC" serve the public dammit!  If you feel the need for any reason to pray for forgivness do so, but what somebody does with that cake after they leave your shop is none of your business.  Now, all you bible thumpers...WWJD?  I really think the Jesus I know is very embarrassed by some of the antics lots his so called "followers" are exhibiting now days.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

"Have faith, hope and love, but amomg these the GREATEST is LOVE."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inaliable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness..."

"Everything I need to survive I learned in Kindergarten"  Think innocence

Believe and live the above and you will be ok and so will everybody else you come in contact with.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 8:40:25 AM

I did not ask a religious question.  I appreciate that you folks think all things evolve around religious beliefs (wow can't use those words together) but some of us may not be so "religious".  I am simply asking Is is anywhere legal, permitted, ok for a business to refuse their product or their service to someone?

I am very glad that you know so many good "religious" quotes.

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 8:53:27 AM

This is private property.  I will ask you to leave or call the cops to help you leave.

Reason?  What reason?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 9:36:08 AM

But thanks for playing.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 9:39:19 AM

Religion aside.  I'm sure that some silken tongue lawyer could find a legal way to justify discrimintion, but it doesn't make it right.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 10:07:56 AM

Well said.  Some might even make it to the Supreme Court!  Right and Legal sometimes do coincide. 

Name:	HARRY -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 10:10:53 AM

The bakery was expected to deliver and set up the cake at the wedding venue which probably made the owners more uncomfortable than just handing the cake over the counter and saying thanks for your business.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	OK! Guys
Date:	4/7/2016 10:27:22 AM

You are invading the PRIVATE SPACE of Arch-idiot and da t-hound.  Stop it.  They had their own little liberal idiocy going along great until you reasonable, maybe a little conservative and adult barged in.  You know how sensitive t-hound is to having "her thread" stolen.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 10:32:29 AM

If delivery and setup is part of their usual services offered they need to provide it to ALL THE PUBLIC. If they object to set up for a gay wedding then they need to establish a new policy for ALL THE PUBLIC...We make the cake, you pick it up!  What is so hard about that?

Name:	HARRY -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 10:44:07 AM

Maybe that's the first time this ever came up with them and all they knew to do was refuse service.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 1:50:54 PM

When I call five builders for a quote to build a tractor shed, is it ok that two of them do not respond?

If I call up A & M plumbing in Alex City, do they have to come fix my hot water heater?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Whatever....
Date:	4/7/2016 2:21:50 PM

If you don't think there are legitimate religious beliefs that homosexual acts are both sinful abd an abomination then you believe in neither Christianity as we know it nor natural law.  There is no such thing as gay marriage even if it is legal.  You can call an apple an orange or a pizza or whatever but that doesn't mean it is one.  As for the gay mafia, if you don't think that there are gay activists that want to put me in prison for my beliefs then you are invincibly ignorant.  Yes, there are lots of gays who want to live and let live.  But I can tell you from personal experience in my own family that there are tons of activists who would love nothing better than to imprison people that oppose their lifestyle choices.  You really need to get out more......

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	OK! Guys
Date:	4/7/2016 2:26:48 PM

Don't know what took this off topic as I have Archibald on ignore and it has been glorious.  I feel like my IQ is up 10 to 20 points just not reading what she wrote.  As for Hound, she apparently hasn't been paying attention to the gay activists and what their ultimate goal is.  The really sad part for them is I believe in their heart of hearts they understand that their lifestyle choice is disordered and their only way to feel good about themselves is to force their beliefs on the rest of us, even at the point of a gun using the power of government.  And all this for 2% of the population.......

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 3:02:01 PM (updated 4/7/2016 3:03:35 PM)

As to my thinking, A and M Plumbing can say "No we can't come any replace your toilet because we are too busy" or because " you are too far out of our service area." With no repercussions. I would not think they can say "no we will not come because you are Muslim and I am Baptist and think Muslims are infidels." or "We can't come because we don't like who you sleep with."

it's not the same...there is a big difference!!!

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 3:08:33 PM

So, the answer to my previous question, that I posed in a couple of posts, is Yes, it is legal, permitted, ok to refuse service, but do I have to give a reason?

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Ya know the Lake Martin redneck
Date:	4/7/2016 3:21:03 PM

contractors have the absolute, perfect, court proof way to handle this whole homosexual/religion thing.  Works like a charm.  Have a local contractor come out and look at your project and ask for a price.  Instead of just telling you they're too busy, don't want the job, don't like you, your religion, whatever....they just bid three times what the work is worth.  Had it happen to me more than once when building.....had the local highway builder (big time operator) quote me $21,000 to dig my basement....he didn't want the small job...got work done for $3,600.  Don't want the business triple the price...no lawsuits, etc.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Whatever....
Date:	4/7/2016 6:30:49 PM

I get out plenty.  And I don't think I am "invincably ignorant" either.  Yes, there are gay activists, just like any other group.  But I don't think their goals are necessarily representative of the whole, just like Black Lives Matter doesn't represent the whole of the black community.  Yes, there are probably some militants who think violence is the answer, like some militant blacks that would like to see all white people dead. 

I don't think you will change your mind MM, nor will I.  But I did have to smile at your "whatever".... like we are teenagers.  LOL

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 6:42:08 PM

I think what you are describing is a bit different that what we are talking about.  Contractors are not really a retail business.  They may not respond because they have too much work already, or they don't work on that kind of project or they may not be able to figure out if they are related to someone you might be related to.  And the example of A&M, they always respond, but they may not be availabe in the timeframe you need (they recently happened to me). 

But I'm talking about if you walked into the new coffee shop in Alex City, and they refused to serve you because the woman behind the counter doesn't think she should have to wait on older men, because her husband divorced in her middle age.  That of course, is a very simple example. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 6:52:49 PM

Yes, it is legal, but it is not okay, if you want to stay in business. 

What about interacial couples?  Should I be allowed to refuse to rent a room in my hotel to them, becasue I don't approve of interracial relationships?  What if a man and woman come in, and I don't think they are married, should I impose my moral belief that sex outside of marriage is wrong, and not rent to them. 

As you know, the question of legality always comes back to what a reasonable man would do.  So would a reasonable man walk into a retail bakery and ask to have a cake baked, and expect a retail business to accomodate him?  Yes, he would. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 6:58:24 PM

Now, if they were being asked to deliver it to the venue, a reasonable man would expect them to bake it, but not deliver it and set it up in the venue.  A reasonable me would not expect to have his order refused, and would understand there is a reason that the baker can't deliver it.  Maybe they have a prior commitment, maybe their van is broken.  But a reasonable man would not expect to have his order turned down because he is a homosexual.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	The majic words
Date:	4/7/2016 7:07:57 PM (updated 4/7/2016 7:10:21 PM)

"Reasonable man".  A quality not in particularly abundant supply in large swaths of the landsacpe these days!  Also interested that you use the word "man" in the universal sense.  In the gender sense there are a lot more sensible "women" around than "men".

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Wix
Date:	4/7/2016 7:07:58 PM

I am thinking that it may be time for me to put you on ignore.  FYI it is considered to be very rude to hijack someone else's thread and take it completely off topic.  And this is another case where the people who are having the discussion are discussing it.  Did you just pop in to call me a liberal? Yes, I have a liberal position on this issue, while still entertaining that adults should be permitted to carry guns.  Like most people, I am multi-dimensional, and in my case, I am old enough to have carefully thought out my position and why I believe what I do.  Your name calling will not change that, so you can call me a liberal all you like, and I will still vote my position on each issue and not blindly follow some pre-set party line. 

And if you don't mind, I would really appreciate it if you did not post anything to a thread that I start, unless you have something that adds to the discussion, because you can't seem to control yourself. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	So well put!
Date:	4/7/2016 7:11:28 PM

Yes, and when it does, it is a beautiful thing.  And I don't think it would be wrong to take it to the Supreme Court, and settle it once and for all.  (that is until the Alabama Atty General decides that a Supreme Court ruling means nothing)

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	The majic words
Date:	4/7/2016 7:12:49 PM

I like to think in terms of reasonable people.  I'm an optimist at heart - I like to think that most people are reasonable. 

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	HOUND
Date:	4/7/2016 7:27:28 PM

You need to loosen up and realize you do not own your thread.  Wix and I are  far apart on the political spectrum but I will always defend his and anyone elses freedom to post.  You need to just enjoy the moment and quit trying to control your thread. At onetime you were an Asst. Administrator and now you are just like the rest of us....simply a poster. Trust me no one is trying to steal your thread

Hope you and Feb have a great weekend.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	I love this kind of discussion
Date:	4/7/2016 7:43:06 PM

I think it is great to exchange ideas like this.  I find it so interesting to hear other people's views and sometimes a discussion like this makes me think about my own thoughts.  Now I am going to go watch Spike Lee's Chi-raq and see what I learn from that.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	GOOF...you da MAN!!!
Date:	4/7/2016 9:24:30 PM

Thanks for supporting an effort to stop domination of the forum by one person.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Hound
Date:	4/7/2016 9:34:37 PM

There have been about 41,500 messages posted on the Off Topic Forum by all posters on the forum and you have made 11.4% of those posts, even though you got mad and boycotted the forum for over a year.  Regardless of what you probably think, it is not your forum.  Your attempt to dominate the forum is obvious.  The owner of this website made the mistake of allowing you to moderate and alter the input to the forum at one time, but had to take back your privilege due to abuses.  Would you please put me on ignore....I would be honored.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/7/2016 10:19:48 PM

I agree that we are distinquishing between sell in the shop, and a service on the road.  That is the thin line I was trying to draw.

The other instance I thought about was the bartender who can refuse someone a drink, based on what he thinks is right.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Yeah well so's you're Mom...or whatever
Date:	4/8/2016 11:30:05 AM

OK, after looking at my "whatever" it does sound like something a teenager would write.  So for this subject title I went back to middle school.  Next one will be full grade school so stop now before I get back to the terrible two's. 

I have no problem with people that have same sex attraction that want to live and let live.  Like all of us, they will be judged according to their actions.  I do have a problem with that portion of the 2% of our population that wants to force their lifestyle choices on the rest of us in the impossible task of making their behavior anything but abnormal.  And yes, I am referring to the gay mafia.  They seek faux legitimacy through the force of government and they seek out and try to destroy good people trying to live up to their legitimate religious beliefs in order to intimidate the rest of us into silent acquiescence.  All these bills are trying to do is to allow people their religious freedom.  But I also understand the moral hazard and how people may misuse them for other reasons.  Hence my comment that it was a difficult situation.

You apparently disagree and think a person has no religious rights when it comes to business.  That is wrong and at odds with natural law and common law, at least until SCOTUS is a majority liberal court and then all bets are off.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Yeah well so's you're Mom...or whatever
Date:	4/8/2016 2:17:53 PM

I have a former colleague and friend who is gay and married.  Born and raised in Louisiana, he now Lives in AZ.  Has a PhD in European History and has been with his (now) husband for 30 years.  They own property together and share their assets.  Now that he is retired, he volunteers his time with a veterans, teaching them how to ride and also volunteers with kids that are LGBT that have been forsaken by their families because they are LGBT. 

When he got married, I asked him why and this is what he told me:

IN many states, the birth family can overide the medical directive and refuse to give access to, or to have a say in the medical treatment, regardless of what the patient may have intended.  With marriage, it gives legitimate status to the partner.

In many states, the will can be contested and overturned by the family, since the partner has no legal status except for those things that are mutually owned and both names appear.

Until the Federal Government legitimized gay marriage, there could be no "survivor" benefits for a surviving partner and they could not share medical insurance. 

And of course they could not file joint taxes. 

Through is volunteer work, he has told me horrifying stories of parents that thew their kids out of the house and broke off all contact with them, when they admitted they were gay (i'm using gay to mean LGBT).  They are left homeless with no one to support them.  Many commit suicide.  The are bullied, harassed, beat up, even killed.  They have no self esteem and are often prayed on by predators or drawn into a life of prostitution. 

the most basic of human nature is to seek connection and to seek love.  How do we know what is in the Bible wasn't written from someone's fear and hatred of something that they didn't understand.  It's not covered in the 10 Comandments which are accepted to be handed down from God. 

Now I understand that you cannot separate religious marriage from legal marriage.  A lot of us can.  I have no problem with gay civil unions and if they find a church willing to marry them, so be it.  So when you ask me if a business should be able to discriminate and refuse to make a wedding cake for two people that want to commit to each other, I just don't see where one's own religious beliefs should get in the way.  Because at the end of the day, the very basis of any religion is a belief in God and to treat each other kindly, and at the core, are God's Ten Commandments which don't include a statement that you are allowed to hate and refuse to serve anyone who doesn't believe as you do.  The rest of it is all stories and examples of what God might have said, written down by men, who may have very well included their own fears and biases, or desires to control. The stories are related to congregations by Ministers, Priests, lay preachers and Sunday school teachers based on their interpreations. 

My one, non-scientific or factual observation is that people tend to fear what they do not understand.  And that fear will cause them to do things to protect themselves from the source of the fear - with hate, retorts of perversion.

It's now 1:15 in AL.  Let's all pull out our rugs or blankies and take a nap.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/8/2016 2:19:54 PM

But wouldn't that be in the interest of public and personal safety. 

Yep, have to agree, it's a very fine line.

Name:	HARRY -	Reply
Subject:	Yeah well so's you're Mom...or whatever
Date:	4/8/2016 3:16:13 PM

Why do supporters of gay rights always end up using the word "hate" in the discussion as you just did?

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	That would be
Date:	4/8/2016 8:20:58 PM

Just my observation that people tend to hate the unfamiliar  - be it in food, people.  It is my further observation that a lot of people are given to say they "hate" gays (although they usually use a stronger word than gay)

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	It's all part of the strategy
Date:	4/10/2016 9:00:31 AM

You have to give the gay mafia credit.  They have not only redefined degenerate behavior and the definition of marriage, but they have also redefined the English language.  To them and the rubes that slavishly fall for their tactics (see Hound's post), anyone that has legitimate objections to homosexual acts based on religious beliefs and natural law is a hater.  It is used to demonize us because when you actually critically and objectively examine the issue, we are correct in our objections.  They don't want to have a discussion on the merits because they lose.  They simply want to intimidate us into silence, even if they have to use the force of government to do so.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Oh Pleeze
Date:	4/10/2016 3:25:23 PM

Must you always go overboard MM?  Do you even listen to Pope Francis?  I hope that sometime you meet or work with a gay person, and get to know them on a friendly basis.  That's the only way you are ever going to overcome this. 

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	Oh Pleeze Shorty
Date:	4/10/2016 9:41:07 PM

Hound - unable to understand that 5% or less Of LGBT's are mafia and want to cram their lifestyle into yours

              yes, 95% are some sweet people,  spent all day Wednesday with my LGBT girls and love 'em

MM - dead on right about the mafia     using the force, not reason of gubment to trash our rights

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Nice try
Date:	4/10/2016 10:16:48 PM (updated 4/10/2016 10:30:19 PM)

Funny, but I am going overboard and yet you don't have one substantive comment to refute what I am saying.  You accused me of hate just because I have legitimate reasons for not condoning homosexual acts.  You are brainwashed like so many others.  And I'm not sure what possessed you to think I don't know people suffering from same sex attraction.  On that note you could not be more wrong.  I feel deeply sorry for them as a disproportionate number of them suffer from other psychological issues as well. Some of them just want to live their lives and be left alone and we get along just fine.  A couple of others are hell bent on trying to extract acceptance of their sin from me but I am not going to ever give them what they want.  I can't because I understand natural law and my religious convictions and to do so would be equally sinful.  And it would not be merciful to those that need to hear the truth before it is too late.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Oh Pleeze Shorty
Date:	4/10/2016 10:26:31 PM

Yeah, but according to Hound they are all so nice and sweet and loving.  She is either clueless or intentionally looking the other way.  Remember back when all they wanted was to have the right to go to the hospital and check on their partner so we gave them civil unions. But that wasn't enough, they wanted to be able to marry so the government gave them that.  But that wasn't enough, they sought out Christians that couldn't participate in their farce because of legitimate religious beliefs so they could ruin them.  But that won't be enough, they will soon seek to criminalize anyone that doesn't accept their lifestyle choice and they will soon be demanding that any church that wants to keep their tax free status allow gay weddings.  Mark my words, it is coming as they are so predictable.

And sadly it is all in a hopeless attempt to obscure what they know in their heart of hearts is a disordered lifestyle choice.  All this attempting to mask reality with false illusions will not lead them to what they want.  It can never happen because they violate natural law and God's law and they know it.  What is really sad is the extent to which others facilitate this behavior.  But none of it will ever be enough for them because they seek that which they can never find.

Name:	Shortbus -	Reply
Subject:	Oh Plaeeze Shorty
Date:	4/11/2016 12:05:14 AM

Again, spot on MM

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Nice try
Date:	4/11/2016 1:04:58 PM

I don't refute your arguments, because you are so dead wrong and living in fantasy land, that I would not know where to begin.

So I guess you'll just have to wallow in your fear and prejudice, and call it your religion.  Apparently, you won't be lonely, because shortbus will be right there beside you. And when you can tell me where, in the 10 Commandments it says that "thou shalt not be a homosexual" and "thou shall shun LBGT" , then we can discuss it again.  In the meantime, I'll pray for both of you that you find tolerance for others.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	That's the best you can do?
Date:	4/11/2016 2:51:46 PM

If your understanding of Christianity is relegated to the Ten Commandments then you are missing the entire New Testament.  But if you want to stick with the Old Testament then let's go there because your lack of substance in your response to my religious beliefs was just perfect.  Let me refer you to the following Old Testament verses that either defines the proper relationship between males and females and  defining homosexual acts as unclean and sinful:  Genesis 1:27, 6:19; 9:20-24; 19:4-13, Leviticus 5:3, 18:22:24:24-30; 24:13 Duet 22:5, 23:17, Judges 2:11-13, 19:22-24, 1 Kings 14:22-24, 15:11-13, 22:43-46; 2 Kings 23:4-7; Ezekial 16:49-50; Daniel 11:37 and so on.  Now I have looked for passages in the Old Testament that condoned homosexual behavior and came up with nothing.  

Care to move onto the New Testament? I didn't think so.  You see Hound, you can reject relgious beliefs if you want, but you cannot find any example of Judaism or Christianity texts identifying homosexuality with anything other than sin and the proper relationship for humanity as a man and woman.  God didn't create a dude to go with Adam.  Christ didn't define marriage as anything other than one man and one woman leaving their mother and father and becoming one in the sacrament of holy matrimony.  And we were created to be complimentary in terms of our physical attributes.  

It simply amazes me to listen to people bunch themselves up in knots to justify abnormal behavior by a tiny portion of our population.  Natural law and God's law.........you want to refute either I am all ears.  Will be fun to watch you try.

Name:	Lifer -	Reply
Subject:	Nice try
Date:	4/11/2016 3:26:08 PM

Prayers from anyone as vehemently anti-religous as you are, are probably as fruitful as picking up turds by the clean end.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Nice try
Date:	4/11/2016 4:07:48 PM

It is ironic that she is praying for me to abandon thousands of years of relgious beliefs and natural law to accept the abnormal lifestyle choices of 2% of the population.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Nice try
Date:	4/11/2016 5:48:11 PM

Now Lifer, how could you know anything about whether I am religious or not?  But I believe in the separation of church and state.  Which is why I don't blame churches that refuse to perform a "marriage" ceremony in the church, but I support legal "marriage" performed by someone that is legally allowed to perform legal joining of two people which we also call marriage.  Why do I call it marriage?  Because you get a certificate that says "Marriage Certificate" on the heading.  So if a state says it's a marriage, then it is.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Nice try
Date:	4/11/2016 5:51:52 PM

So if the state said an apple was an orange that changes a red, juicy fruit magically into an orange pulpy one.  Non compis mentis.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Are you saying a Driver's License isn't a driver's
Date:	4/11/2016 6:15:32 PM

license even through the state recognizes it as such and you get a card that says "drivers license"  So a marriage certificate is not a marriage certificate if the state recognizes it as such?  The courts recognize these state certificates. I have a county issued permit to carry a concealed weapon.  If the Sheriff finds me with a gun in my pocket, and my he asks to see my permit when I show it, he accepts that I am legal to carry a gun concealed. You cannot get married, in the church or not, without the State's approval which is called a marriage license.  If you are married in a civil ceremony and issued a marriage certificate, you are married. 

As far as I know, the States have not yet started issuing certificates for fresh fruit, so your example makes no sense to me.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Are you saying a Driver's License isn't a driver's
Date:	4/11/2016 7:34:40 PM

No, what I am saying is that marriage is the union of one man and one woman.  Anything else is just calling something what it isn't. Maybe a better analogy would be if the government declared by law you were stupid and ugly would that make you stupid and ugly?  I think not.  The government calling some ceremony between two men or two women marriage is no different. Call it what you want it's still a farce. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	No MM
Date:	4/12/2016 8:55:35 AM (updated 4/12/2016 8:58:39 AM)

What you are saying in your paranoid state of frenzy is that marriage can ONLY be solomnized by a religious instutution in accordance with that institutions dogma.  For many years it has been recognized that in fact other forms of formal joining together in marriage do legally exist in this and most nations...in Florida a Notary Public can marry anybody, for years sea captains have held that power, in some states a sherriff can do it , and I thing in all states any judge has the authority.  My late inlaws who were devout Southern Baptists all ther lives were married by a Justice of the Peace in Opp,AL!  Now if you and the other crazies in order to defeat the "Gay mafia" and their "agenda" can get ALL laws that permit anyone other than a priest, preacher or rabbi (I omit an omam and Unitarian clergy because that is of course not acceptable) to solomize a "marriage" then get back to us.  Until then any marriage performed in accordance within the legal statutes of "civil" law is a marriage whether you and the rest of the flat earthers like it or not!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	In Your Opinion
Date:	4/12/2016 12:05:49 PM

And only in your opinion and in some kind of religious dogma.  But the fact is that civil unions, between members of the same sex are both legal and recognized as married. 

And that is the great thing about our country - you were permitted to marry a woman; and my friend, was allowed to marry his same sex partner.  And you aren't required to marry a man and he is not required to marry a woman.  I guess I prefer it out in the open.  So much better than a gay man having to marry a woman to keep people from talking, and then slipping around having affairs with men.  It's called progress.  Life is good.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Not my opinion
Date:	4/12/2016 12:53:54 PM

No, the formal definition of marriage used to be one man and one woman, both religiously and civilly.  That civil authorities are calling two men or two women married is no more sensical than civil authorities calling an apple an orange.  It doesn't change the reality or the substance, it just misapplies the term marriage to same sex couples.  Call it what you want, but its still an apple.  Sorry you can't comprehend this logic.  

Maybe a better question is exactly what additional rights do same sex couples get with their faux marriage over a civil union?  The answer is absolutely nothing.  What they seek is something that they can never achieve even with this misapplication of the term marriage.  They are still making a lifestyle choice that violates natural law and God's law and they know it.  It is why they will continue their activism until they can use the full force of government to force those of us with legitimate relgious and natural law objections to same sex "marriage" into silence or worse.  I and many others predicted they would not stop with civil unions despite their protests to the contrary.  Watch and wait.  They are so predictable.  And no, life for people suffering same sex attraction is anything but good.  And it has nothing to do with the lack of civil unions or marriage or whatever and won't be good if they accomplish the silencing of people with objections to their lifestyle.  They seek that which they can never get.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Just looked
Date:	4/12/2016 2:04:06 PM

Had an old Merriam Webster dictionary circa 1990 and here is the definition of marriage:  the act of marrying, or the state of being married; legal union of a man and a woman for life, as husband and wife.  I believe this is still one of the definitions but they have now added same sex.  And of course that is the definition of marriage going back thousands of years.

I am sure you would agree with me if they changed the definition of an apple to:  a globose berry with a yellowish to reddish-orange rind and a sweet edible pulp.  I think you would agree with me and say, hey, that's not an apple, that's an orange!  Or maybe like the defintion of marriage you would start calling an apple an orange. Makes as little sense as calling same sex couples married......

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Just looked
Date:	4/12/2016 2:36:46 PM (updated 4/12/2016 2:39:12 PM)

Aren't you smart MM.  Slavery used to be legal too. Women used to not be allowed to vote or own property. 12 year olds used to work in mines and textile mills 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Dueling used to be legal. It was once legal to refuse service to Catholics!!! ......Same sex couples used to not be allowed to legally marry, now they can!  Times, customs and laws change...MM never does!!

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	MM you are missing
Date:	4/12/2016 8:31:55 PM

a very important part to the LBGTQueer equation.  The few thousand homosexual reactionaries would be totally ineffective if not for the liberal herd such as your friends here that support these homosexual idiots simply because they know it counters the better judgement of conservatives.  These liberals wouldn't give a rat's butt if they couldn't P off some conservative Christians.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	1990
Date:	4/12/2016 9:07:30 PM

was a long time ago.  Things change.  Opinions change. Life goes on.  We could continue to debate this infinitely, but I'm not LGBT nor are you, so it's not really affecting either of us. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	MM you are missing
Date:	4/13/2016 8:19:13 AM

I suppose that could be an element of the slavish bowing to the gay mafia....the enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing.  Sadly when you look at polls of millenials and ask them what percentage of the population is gay the numbers are staggeringly overblown.  Such is the success of the leftists in our education system to dumb down our kids and the modern culture that makes it seem like every third person suffers from same sex attraction.  When you tell them the truth they are simply blown away.  Then they start to think about it and realize based on their own experience that the number is indeed 2%.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Not my opinion
Date:	4/13/2016 8:30:23 AM (updated 4/13/2016 8:34:32 AM)

So MM, are you saying you oppose same sex "marriage" but have no problem with same sex "Civil Unions" other than the fact that the couple are both "sinners", (their problem not yours or anybody elses)?  Good grief....marriage is a word and the definition of words evolve as society changes.  Maybe we should just drop it altogether as a "legal" term.  Lets change what has traditionally been called "marriage" to "religious union" if performed in a religious edifice and "civil union" if done in a courthouse! Talk about arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!! I really don't think I have ever come across a more homophobic individual than MM!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Saw a cute thing on FB
Date:	4/13/2016 5:03:48 PM

Just in light of our ongoing conversation about this

"Just think how many gay florists do flowers for Christian weddings"

Now you know that there is a lot of truth to that.  That's why  it is funny.  I'll bet there are a lot of gay event planners too and I doubt that all they do is plan gay events. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Saw a cute thing on FB
Date:	4/13/2016 7:01:00 PM

Yeah, if they only did gay events outside of NYC and San Fran they would starve to death. What is ironic is tha if they refused to do flowers for a Christian wedding because of the Christian view on same sex marriage I would support them 100%. Wish they gave us the same right.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Saw a cute thing on FB
Date:	4/14/2016 11:03:11 AM

And they would be just as bigoted and wrong as when it is reversed.  A license to serve the public doesn't offer any exemptions! MM would be just as bigoted and wrong by supporting a gay business person's refusal to serve a Christian wedding as he is when he supports a "Christian" business owner's refusal to serve a gay one!

Hound, thanks for the example. It reminds me of a Time Magazine quote from someone a few years back when the Southern Baptists were on one of their anti-gay crusades...a moderate Southern Baptist opined that if they weren't careful they might soon find they didn't have anybody to play their church organs! Being married to a girl who grew up Southern Baptist and who always has been a choir member in originally several Baptist churches and now in a Methodist one, there is lots of truth in that statement! 

BTW MM, it applies to Catholic musical types too!  Oh the horror!

Name:	GoneFishin -	Reply
Subject:	Arch Wasting Your Time
Date:	4/14/2016 4:30:09 PM

Too bad, MM has you (Arch) on ignore. I would wager that he reads it late at night when no one is looking. I am a firm believer that when someone gets mad at another person thay have allowed that person to control them. The same is true when someone puts you on ignore they have løst control and ignore is their reaction. A rather simpistic approach that they must teach in those church schools that MM attended. They sure didn't teach that in the government run schools.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Arch Wasting Your Time
Date:	4/14/2016 8:57:30 PM

Yeah probably so.  I have Wix on ignore but read him from time to time just to see how off the wall some of these guys are and for s good laugh.  I know that MM ignores anybody who states "facts" and "truths" that demonstrate the fallacy of his "opinions" spouts as facts and truths.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	It's not the same, Shortbus
Date:	4/17/2016 9:35:45 AM

Does Bruce Springsteen have the right to refuse to do a concert in an area where folks have different beliefs than his?