Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/3/2016 9:48:51 AM (updated 4/3/2016 10:46:17 AM)

As always seems to happen on this forum when any non true-believer raises a sincere and serious question, I expect to be blown off as being "racist", or "baby killer", or a "libtard" or "off my meds" just for asking the question, but I can take it so here goes.

My views on abortion are probably known on this forum.  With that caveat, last week Trump said if abortion was made illegal and a woman had an abortion, she should be punished.  Both pro and anti abortion crowds hit the ceiling objecting to his remarks, both sides deploring his remark saying the woman should not be punished.  Being the Donald, he quickly began to walk it back and in so doing has gotten into more hot water by saying he thinks the current abortion statutes should perhaps remain in place.

More than one poster on this forum has called abortion murder.  Do those who feel so agree with Trump's initial statement "the woman should be subject to punishment"?  If not, why not?  If abortion is murder how is a woman who volunteers to have one not an accessory to murder?  Simple question...is there a real answer, simple or otherwise.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/3/2016 1:06:05 PM

I'll probably be hung with you, but I am pro-choice and I think Roe v. Wade should stay in place.  If however, at some point if they are able to make go away, I would say that if a Dr.  violates the law, then he would be subject to punishment, just as if he had broken any other law.  But that won't happen - because women of no means will be back in the alleys, and women of means will go where it is legal.  The women in seeking back room abortions shouldn't be punished - it is punishment enough subjecting themselves to bleeding to death, blood poisoning, sepsis and the possibility of never being able to bear children, because the abortionist didn't know what they were doing. or those women will be left to resort to arsenic or some other "drug" thought to induce abortion. 

Getting rid of Roe v. Wade will not stop abortion.  I know this upsets a lot of people, but choice is choice.  If your values and beliefs don't support abortion, then don't have one or consider it an option.  And mind your own business when it comes to reproduction rights.  I just read a horrible story that the fetus died at 22 weeks, but under Texas law, the woman was required to carry the fetus to term and delivery it.  The emotional cruelty plus the threat to the mother's health is just astounding in it's stupidity.   

You can believe if it was men who had the babies, nothing would be off the table. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/3/2016 1:53:59 PM

Amen.  As the saying goes "If men had babies abortion would be a sacrement".  Now, wonder when some of these men who consider abortion murder will answer the question as to whether they truly have the courage of their convictions and agree that an accessory to murder should go punished!

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/3/2016 2:07:43 PM

I have always been strongly pro-choice, and I come to that position through my belief in a person’s right of self-determination and freedom to make the best choices suited to their particular situation in life.   I have sat with many women who were either considering abortions or had already had one and it is my opinion that none of them made the decision lightly… nor used it as an alternative birth control method.   When they were considering this very weighty and powerful choice, they felt they were facing nothing less than a crisis that threatened the outcome of their lives…

No one should be forced to have a child they do not want or are unable to care for.  

Is there a moral dimension to this decision?   Absolutely, yes.   Ask any woman who has ever had to terminate a pregnancy and she will tell you about the doubts, the guilt, the uncertainties she experienced.      But should this moral quandary be solved by the government or left to the individuals it affects?   You know my answer to that one.   This anti-abortion sentiment is rooted in religion, not common law… and I don’t think we should codify religious beliefs like this into law so they can be applied across the board.

I believe that the only way for an anti-abortion person to be consistent is to also be in support of expanded welfare benefits for single mothers and their children.   In my opinion, if you are going to force people to have children they can’t care for,  then society will need to take care of an ever increasing number of abandoned and neglected children.    But I find that the typical opponent also believes we should cut back on welfare programs, too… generally following some vague notion that poverty will somehow make people quit having babies they can’t afford.  

It seems to me that the anti-abortion position has always been essentially punative toward women.  Punishment has been in the form of shame & condemnation.  

Name:	HARRY -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/3/2016 3:12:16 PM

If it were deemed illegal would not she be breaking the law?  

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/3/2016 5:30:02 PM

Well stated and right in sync with the sage comment that too many conservatives seem to believe that, at least when it comes to government support and involvement, life begins at conception and ends at birth.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Sure seems that way to me.
Date:	4/3/2016 5:35:21 PM (updated 4/3/2016 5:39:11 PM)

Exactly my question, shouldn't those who are an assessory to an illegal act be liable to punishment for that involvement?  The evangelical right seems to want it both ways...abortion is murder but the person who voluntarily delivers the victim to the murderer is absolved of all responsibility.  It doesn't make sense in a legal perspective but I guess it does in a political one to some folks.  You can't have it both ways...if abortion is murder then the "mother" is liable...period!

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Golly gee arch-idiot
Date:	4/3/2016 6:39:24 PM

Guess you can't stir up any of your nonsensical BS today....

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Sure seems that way to me.
Date:	4/3/2016 7:23:18 PM

So if the woman is an accessory to murder and the abortionist - are we going to jail these people?  Better start building a bunch more prisons.

Thank goodness they don't have the votes to throw out Roe v. Wade.  The real crime will be if we allow certain religious beliefs to supplant our civil laws. 

Name:	HARRY -	Reply
Subject:	Sure seems that way to me.
Date:	4/3/2016 8:45:18 PM

Dont know if everyone on here is familiar but the Victoryland case in Macon County is similar. The "bingo" machines were deemed illegal yet the person responsible for them was never arrested.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Thanks
Date:	4/4/2016 11:33:57 AM

Even after years of thinking about this issue, I have to say that I never would have thought to argue the pro-choice position like this.   I guess the entire notion of punishing a woman who chose to terminate their pregnancy was just so terrible, like piling on suffering when someone is already severely distressed...   I rejected the idea outright and hadn't thought to carry anti-abortion thinking to this logical conclusion.    If it's going to be illegal, then everyone involved has committed an illegal act and the punishments prescribed by law fall on everyone's shoulders.

Of course, I would never want punishment because I don't think a crime has been committed....but the logic in your argument is compelling because it points out the severe contradiction required to criminalize abortion.

Rowe v Wade comes as close to a solution to this complicated problem as any law could, by providing a framework for the decision making process.   Early on, it's a woman's choice.... as the pregnancy progresses to full term there is a legally prescribed transition to acknowledge the emergence of a seperate & viable life.   That's the best that we can do, I think.    Opponents of legalized abortion tend to think that my position is completely devoid of sympathy, cruel & barbaric... but the opposite is true.   I really struggle with weight of this one, there are no easy answers here.  

That said, I regret to acknowledge that we have Donald Trump to thank for bringing this one to center stage nationally.   In his shallow, 'I just say the first thing that pops into my head' way... he exposed the bottom line of anti-abortion thinking and made it necessary for lots of people to re-examine the outcome of the position they had been taking.  

So now I have two things to be grateful to The Donald for... the first one being that he is keeping Ted Cruz at bay.....

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Ya know Copper
Date:	4/4/2016 12:03:16 PM

I think the irreconcilables must be struggling with this...based on their lack of enthusiasm in responding to the question. I don't see how there is a good answer.  How can a "mother" who knowingly brings her "baby" to be murdered not be guilty?

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 2:52:38 PM

1. you walk a slippery and defining step when you state that just because a human life is unwanted or unable to be taken care of, it is     better off dead.

2. We certainly all agree that there are different degrees of legal injustice.  Violence is considered by most the worst and killing the         worst of all.

  Hence, there must also exist different categories of an innocent victim.  Who do you think warrants the higher claim to protection?       Your and my answer to this question probably differs; I would say the small and helpless and early life the highest of all.

3.  You say the the Pro-Life movement is rooted in religion.  Yes in part, but would you not agree that the MINIMUM purpose of GOVERNMENT would be to shield the weak, no matter what race, religion, ethnicity, sex, or income bracket from abuse by the strong? That is certainly what Democrats currently espouse.    Who would be considered weaker than the unborn child?  It is incorrect to say that government has no stated function in this debate.

4.  Only a very limited number of people are ever brave enough to stand on the side of an unpopular cause.  Consider me one in this instance.....because what is more outrageous  than fatal violence against the most helpless members of our human community.  This is the issue that should be at the forefront of political discourse, not the distraction that has evolved discussing who might be worthy of punishment.  

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 3:29:32 PM (updated 4/4/2016 3:30:59 PM)

It all depends on your opinion vs mine doesn't it?  Your opinion is that human life begins at conception and I believe it starts at the moment a fetus becomes a person...at the point that person can survive outside the womb.  I say again that I respect your opinion and defend your right to hold it.  It is sad to me that so few "pro-lifers" are willing to openly concede that I have that same right.

Interesting that you talk religipon and philosophy but never get to the point:

1/  Do you believe abortion is murder because the fetus is a "human child"?

2/  If yes, do you believe the woman, by having an abortion is freely yielding up her "child" to the murderer thereby making her an accessory to the crime.

3/  If not why not?

4/  If yes should she be punished in any way?

5/  If not why not?

6/  If yes what should the punishment be?

Bottom line, if abortion is a "crime" all involved should bear legal responsibility!!  I do not believe that an abortion before viability is a crime so think no penalty should be assessed.  If it occurs after viability, with exceptions for the life and health of the woman, it is a crime and ALL should be charged!

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 3:33:48 PM (updated 4/4/2016 3:34:49 PM)

The best that is said so far is that the issue is tough.  Pro-abortion folks argue for a woman to have the right to control her body.  But the toughness comes when there is ANOTHER body, who is endowed by his creator with certain unalienable rights, among them life, liberty ...

Some day the baby will have rights.  Will abortion be murder?  Even pro-abortion folks have to know in their heart, that at some point a baby is a person, a body.  Perhaps if we ever get to the point where the baby has rights, then the laws will be unenforced like visas and illegal immigration laws.

Tough issue, but I come down on the side of protecting life, and if you cannot find a tenable end to that position then it will just remain tough.

P.S.  Sorry I have not been around the help you out with this issue but I had more pressing items to tend to.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 3:46:19 PM

People who are pro-choice are not "pro abortion", they are for allowing each person to make their own decision.  For example, for people that do not believe in abortion, someone that is pro-choice would never judge that person, but accept it as their choice. Where as pro-lifers want to impose their beliefs on everyone.

The problem is that people who hold to certain religious beliefs believe that abortion is murder and then they want everyone else to accept their beliefs and what they believe is right as law.  The 10 Commandments are not part of the Constitution of this country.  We seperate church and state here, despite attempts by others to change that.

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 5:03:12 PM

Answers 

1. Yes, I feel it is long past time that pro-lifers become consistent.  Murder, homocide, whatever you want to call it.  Legal gymnastics is not my forte.  It is the taking of an innocent human life.

2.  Probably conspiracy to committ above as accomplice would be the charge most widely discussed

4.  The more serious you are about stopping any practice, the more seriously you punish it.  I read that George Savile once said....Men are not hanged for stealing horses, but that horses may not be stolen.  Not that I am advocating for hanging, but hopefully you get my drift!

6.  No idea. Severe enough to limit the practice.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 5:08:01 PM

My religion does not guide me on this.  Chapter and verse are modern technology and sonograms, and heart beats.  I quoted preamble or something above, not John 3:16.

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 7:04:20 PM

Thanks for being honest.  Most of your fellow believers have been less so.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 7:11:38 PM

But, abortion is LEGAL, regardless of the whatever technology says.  Do you believe that a woman who is 22 weeks pregnant and the fetus dies, should be denied an induced abortion - or should she be required to carry that baby full term and deliver it, like in Texas? 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 7:23:25 PM

With all due respect to your perspective, perhaps you can explain to me why people want to ban abortion, then want to cut public assistance to the mother, who can't afford the child?  Why then do they want to cut pre-school programs, Medicaid and all those other program that provide assistance to people that have babies they can't afford.

I think that before anyone gets so excited about protecting a fetus, they should consider the long term effects when a baby that is unwanted or can not be afforded.  Would you be in favor of state or federally funded orphanages to take care of unwanted babies once they are born?  Would you agree that we should be funding social programs to take care of these children? 

In my view, you (not you personally) can't impose your will to "save" a fetus, and then have society push it to the parents and say now "this is your problem" and there will be no public funds to help you.  It just doesn't make any sense. When someone finally tells me that we are going to force women to bear an unwanted child AND that we are going to publically take care of that child until he is of legal age, than I will agree that abortion should be banned. 

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 7:28:42 PM

You quoted from the Declaration of Independance "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all MEN (no mention of the unborn) are cerated equal......" The Declaration is an important document which declared the colonies desired to no longer be apart of the British Empire but di not establish the laws to govern the United States of America which would not even come into existance until the Constitution was adopted 13 years later.  The Constitution also does not establish personhood or citizenship for the unborn.  Anti-abortion beliefs are completel based on religious beliefs.  That is all fine and good but not something that should be forced upon all.

Hound makes such good points...Many pro-choice people, including me, are personally anti-abortion but realize it is not up to us to make decisions for other people.  Even the strongest pro-choice advocate would never condemn a woman who is pregnant due to incestual rape, but because of her moral beliefs, bears the child.  Many if not most anti-abortion folks would condemn the woman who chose to end a pregnancy under the same circumstances and shout at her for "why did you kill your baby?" as she left the clinic! 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	And one other thing
Date:	4/4/2016 7:30:44 PM

Where does the father of the fetus belong in all this?  Is he an accessory to the crime because he got the woman pregnant to start with? When she is forced to bear the child, is he to be forced to support it?  Suppose he doesn't work?  Does anyone have any idea how backed up the courts are with child support cases and what happens when the man doesn't pay? 

If we are going to talk about abortion and who should be prosecuted, lets look at the whole picture.  Before we ban abortion, lets just stop and consider the whole situation of bringing an unwanted child into the world.  Just please don't worry about the fetus and then forget the baby that you insisted be born. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 7:34:21 PM

You totally get it. 

Also read my new comments above (around Counsil Rock Doc's post)  The one's about being so concerned about saving the fetus and then wanting to cut all social welfare programs to take care of that child once he is born.  I guess it is just enough that he has his life and then it is all up to him. 

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 7:56:08 PM

That would not be saving a life, but more hindering her life.  Death changes things, but we should not cause the death.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 7:59:18 PM

The issue is tough.  And any time you choose a path based on one life versus another life it is a TOUGH issue.  I happen to believe that baby is a some body, and regardless of what we think of Red Coats and tea taxes, they remain some body.  It is a tough issue.

Name:	Council Rock Doc -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 8:08:53 PM

Hound,

There are many Pro-Life groups that do not rely on public funding in order to provide medical assistance, job training, educational opportunities, housing and counseling to women in crisis situations.  There are currently 2-3 million fertile and infertile couples who would like the opportunity to adopt, including those children with Downs, Spina Bifida etc.  America has always thrived when challenged to be creative and creativity is what is needed.  Although illegal aliens do provide services, they also absorb a considerable amount of goodwill from the citizenry without us blinking an eye.  The private sector must get involved.  So your notion that America would not rise to the occasion when faced with a new generation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to see the sun rise and set is not plausible in my opinion.  Our generation will not rule from the grave and I am convinced that we will be viewed harshly as a generation that allowed the deaths of the unborn, who if given names and those names were recorded on a wall similar to the Vietnam Mem, would reach a length of 100 miles.  

Name:	architect -	Reply
Subject:	Some body
Date:	4/4/2016 9:28:39 PM

Yep, the never ever abortion crowd believes life begins at conception, but as far as any help is concerned, it ends at birth!

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/4/2016 9:31:42 PM

I am sure there are many kind hearted organizations and professionals that donate generously to help.  And yes, there are couples that are looking to adopt.  And all of those people are to be commended, and I am sure they will get their rewards in heaven  I know you are a Dr and have shared in the past the amount of time and effort that you generously donated to make life better for others.  And I admire that very much and I am sure that you and others are fine people.

However, in a political sense, it makes no sense to me that the very same people that are so anxious to prevent abortion want cut the very benefits that these babies and their mothers will need to thrive 

As you know, I am strongly pro-choice for a variety of reasons. I think men should leave the issue alone and let women debate it, since no man will ever be in the position of being pregnant  At the end of the day it is a woman's issue.  But until abortion becomes Illegal, my feeling is to do what is within your moral and religious beliefs, but please don't impose your moral and religious beliefs on other women.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	ANOTHER sincere and serious question
Date:	4/5/2016 11:08:00 AM

This discussion is what the forum should be about, a sharing of viewpoints without name-calling and insults.   Thank you to everyone.

Doc, your posts are very thoughtful and I appreciate them.   But I have to put up a couple of counterpoints from the other side.  

Regarding the large numbers of people who are hoping to adopt, and that they are the natural solution to this problem:       Unfortunately, the majority of unwanted children do not end up in the adoption system, they are in foster care homes & institutions because their family life collapsed not when they were new borns… but when the kids were older, and beyond that age when adoption is desirable to those good people.    Infants & toddlers get adopted, 9 year olds do not.   Teenagers do not.   Those kids are held in a foster care system in hopes that someday their original families can get themselves together and come back to parent the child that was removed from their care.   And that just doesn’t happen very often.  For that reason, the availability of large numbers of potential adoptive parents can only make a small contribution to the problem of unwanted & abandoned children.

Regarding private agencies that provide social/medical/educational services to single mothers:   There are some good examples of that, but the dispersion of those agencies will always be spotty & uncoordinated.   A generous program in Birmingham is irrelevant to a pregnant 16 yr old in Wilcox County because there are few people near her to organize, conduct or fund the complex social services needed to compensate for the burdens of parenthood she is about to face.     Private, non-publically funded programs will always tend to develop where they have a funding base of support and they will be limited in their reach.   Only the State can provide programatic services equally over underfunded or impoverished regions.   That said, neither private nor public programs can provide enough to transform an immature child or unwilling adult into a competent parent.   Nor can those programs realistically provide the vast array of financial support, childcare, medical care, education & job training, nutrition, transportation, housing, counseling and instrumental support needed to make a good parent out of someone who doesn’t want the job.   Further complicating things....those very expensive services aren’t needed for a nine month pregnancy, but for a span of 18 to 25 years between conception and emancipation.

One reality of working with pregnant teens is that they don’t understand the magnitude of what’s required to become a parent themselves so they don’t often have the ability to make competent choices.  An example would be the little girl who gets pregnant, and her parents wish she would put the child up for adoption at birth.     She might even agree, but as she comes to term she has bonded & developed a strong sense of maternal attachment.   Now, regardless of the inadvisability of doing so, she insists on keeping the child for her own.   It happens all the time, and the impact of those unplanned pregnancies affects the entire family over subsequent years.   It’s really common now for aging grandparents to become parents of new-borns, and sad to see any elderly couple struggling to raise a child who was dropped off by birth parents who could not fend for themselves & their accidental child.

I believe that the important choice to have a child has to remain with the two people who conceived it.  And for the first part of pregnancy, I think it is the responsibility of those people to decide to give life or not.  It has to be that way.   Accidental pregnancies can’t just be lightly accepted without consideration of their consequences.  It has to be up to the woman to not only decide if she is ready & able to bring the pregnancy to term… but also provide the long term financial, emotional and physical conditions needed for that new human being to thrive.   It’s the natural responsibility of the couple to bring a new life into the world, to decide the where and when, and decide for themselves if they are up to the task.   If they are not ready, willing or able, then we should not force this on them.   We should do what we can to make sure they have the space needed to come to a good decision.    Not doing so creates circumstances where more families collapse, abuse & neglect becomes more commonplace, and unloved children become wards of the state.