Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	12/30/2012 12:40:17 AM

Here’s how i see it.  i (and my wife) worked all our lives, saved our money, avoided debt and it worked out just fine because we did.   We’re safe, well-fed, able to afford the important safety nets of our time like medical insurance and such.    So i do agree about the need for good fundamental money management whether on a private or government level.   i’m no economist, but i do believe that running an entire nation is not exactly the same in every respect.   For instance, the government has a different function in society.  it’s purpose is to serve our collective needs not just me and a few relatives.    And when the government has to, it injects capital into the economy by way of taxing and spending on strategically important tasks like public safety, healthcare, the military, education, energy, research of all kinds, and infrastructure development like transportation, communication, or regulation of industry.     This can also mean the govt can ‘prime the pump’ of an ailing economy or bring it completely down with economic errors.     Conservatives would leave any pump priming to corporations and the free market, and hope those private interests would do the right thing for society.

As far as cutting programs and federal budgets go, i'm pretty strong in supporting public welfare programs, but my real POV is that we are ALL much more dependent on government functions than we think about.... and when you really start cutting federal programs in a meaningful way, you are going to surprise people with the changes it brings in their lives.   Yes, we have to keep government spending in line with GDP over time. This is going to mean accepting changes in all sorts of government activity.   i agree with that.

A fellow i know was bitterly complaining about how intrusive government was into his business, how the taxes were beyond reason because they were being wasted on deadbeats, …. And, he added, the worst kick in the pants was that the government loan he was wanting for his business was being delayed by a very inattentive agency he was dealing with.   in my view, his anger is going to get worse because he already depends on the government in ways he won’t acknowledge.  He thinks there is an easily identified group of cheats & bums that are causing the problem.

A final example, i read that it is possible… even likely… that the cost of a gallon of milk could double as a result of the fiscal cliff debacle… because tax supports to the dairy industry that are designed to keep that cost low to US consumers will be taken away.    Now that seems like a good use of tax dollars to me, and represents one of the functions that i expect our govt should continue to do.   i do not want to see us continue to fail to solve the economic crisis, but i imagine that if we do, you’ll start hearing more people complaining about the lack of services that come from tax dollars & government programs shortly after Jan 1.

Name:	copperline -	Reply
Subject:	Copperline
Date:	12/30/2012 11:21:12 AM

Here’s a piece of irony i often think about.    Liberals in my day were very concerned about government intrusion into their lives, angry and shocked at the way government seemed to be using it’s vast powers to undermine us.   We believed the government was beyond our control, had an agenda controlled by a minority of wealthy Capitalists, and was bent on restraining the popular will of the people.  Liberals don’t so much have a history of trusting the government as much as a belief that many huge social problems have to be addressed on a scale that only the government can achieve.   That said, i’m very wary of the government.  i don’t like secret prisons, torture, renditions, wars based on dubious intelligence reports, and the fact that government has so many ways to snoop into my life.    i don’t like secret government programs that aren’t accountable to public scrutiny, sanctioned assassinations and the like.        Based on some of that, you could say that i have something in common with some Tea Party views.  

Fundamentally though, as much as i am wary of big government… As a whole i trust profit-driven corporations even less, and i disagree with a conservative approach that would give more control to corporations and trust that the free market will create an acceptable solution for every social problem we need to address.

it would be cool if we could make a list of the major areas of disagreement we have, and rather than argue about our differences try to find what common ground there is between the Liberal and Conservative view in each category.  As an exercise, it might be a good place to begin 2013’s discussion on the Forum.   Contribute topics to the list but refrain from phrasing them in ways intended to slight the other side, and identify (for now… we can always debate later) where our thinking is the same… and or maybe not so different from each other.

Differences from Right to Left

·         Welfare & the Social Safety Net

·         Healthcare

·         Wars and Foreign Affairs

·         Regulation of industry

·         The role of Religion in Governing the country

·         Civil Rights & expanding civil rights to minorities like Gays & Lesbians

·         Crime & Punishment

·         Poverty

·         What are the limits & role of government in society?  What is the role of Corporations?