Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 9:07:21 AM (updated 9/29/2021 9:36:30 AM)

So no surprise that Dementia Joe lied.....or maybe he just forgot given his diminished mental acuity....about being told what would happen with his disastrous decision to pull out of Afghanistan.  Apparently they are not willing to go down with him and are claiming they told him not to do it but he ignored their advice.  Or maybe they are both lying and are simply incompetent.  Any way you look at it they had zero interest in falling on their sword for the president and threw him under the bus and backed over him.

My favorite part of this was the WaPoBS "fact checker" telling their readers to decide for themselves if Biden lied.  Here is the transcript:

ABC News: "Your military advisers did not tell you, 'No, we should just keep 2,500 troops. It's been a stable situation for the last several years. We can do that?"

BIDEN: “No. No one said that to me that I can recall.”

Here's a short list of his statements and reality per Nikki Haley:

Biden said Al-Qaeda isn’t in Afghanistan. False.

Biden said he couldn’t recall being told to keep forces there. False.

Biden said he was told the Afghan military could stand on their own. False.

Biden said he would get all Americans out. False.

Notice the pattern?  He is either lying about things that matter, is so senile he can't recall or both.  Cue Goofy to post a nude picture of Melania and tell us how Trump cheated on his wife and told lies.  

Name:	CRD -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 9:30:49 AM (updated 9/29/2021 9:32:36 AM)

Afghanistan is now run by the Taliban, who protects an active and persistent al-Qaida (reconstituted from released prisoners), with ISIS re-emerging.  Sounds eerily similar to 2001.  The Dems do a good job of circling the wagons to protect their own, because they have such little regard for their constituents intelligence levels.  Their voters will do what they are told, and that is all that matters.  How does it feel Fish and Archie to be lumped into a constituency where those you nominate have such little regard for your IQ and your ability for independent thought?

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 9:41:21 AM

Sadly who can blame them for being so cynical?  Look at what progressive policies have done over the last 50 years and yet people still vote for them.  Just look at the example of Dementia Joe and his Pravda spokesperson telling us that the $3.5T in spending actually costs zero because they will raise taxes to pay for it.  Breathtaking in its stupidity and a clear example of what they think about the lack of intelligence of their voters.  Would be interesting to see if our local left wing nuts agree with this.....scares me to think they do.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 10:14:40 AM

If Biden is comfortable with his decisions he should have no trouble explaining to the American people why he ignored his military leaders' advice.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 10:23:09 AM

Milley probably communicated plans to the Taliban!!

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 10:36:19 AM

I watched a good part of the three DoD leaders' Senate statements and answers.  Their statements were pretty powerful and served to dispel any thoughts that our military was "going rogue".  I highly doubt there was the same kind of communication with the Taliban, and Milley's testimony was that the calls with the Chinese were commonplace and not the least bit "secret".  It makes sense to me that we not start World War III because one superpower's actions were misinterpreted by another due to a lack of communication.  

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 10:54:09 AM

It is understandable but you have blinders on when it comes to the military. Those generals were all in cya mode

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 11:24:39 AM

Those generals have been put in one hell of a position, with an awful lot of negative press that was opinion based on no knowledge of what really happened.  I don't blame them one bit for setting the record straight.  Do I have blinders regarding the military, no.  Do I know a little more about the military than most on this forum, probably. 

I thought about what Gen Milley said about the suggestion he resign if he didn't  agree with Biden' decision.  One of the reasons our Government has been stable throughout our history is that we fully subscribe to civilian control of the military, and the military ethos is "give your best advice to your leader and then carry ut your leader's decision, whether you like it or not".  The military doesn't subscribe to the idea that if you don't like your leader's decision you just quit.  As Milley said, that would end up being a political decision.  

Now with regard to the SecDef, even though Austin is a retired General, that is a civilian position and he might be one to resign if he really has a problem with directives and decisions from the White House.  Who knows what went through his head.  Maybe his military training kicked in when it shouldn't have.  Then again, maybe he felt he belonged in the position to try to make the best out of some really crappy decisions coming from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.  It is obvious that the real problem is in DC, not across the Potomac in Northern Virginia.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 11:26:52 AM

The issue for me is that Biden is obviously not comfortable with his decisions and lied about the advice he was given from the military.  He lied over and over again about something that really matters, now and for years to come.  If only that Milley was willing to go around civilian command in this case like he did with Trump and China...but no, suddenly he is all for his role as an advisor that then does what he's told.  That's because he is more of a politician than a soldier.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 12:21:40 PM

No matter the walk of life, the higher a person goes in an organization, the more politically astute that person needs to be.  It is the way things get done, through negotiation, give and take, getting the "right" person on ones' side and so on.  It is no different in the military and I will suggest to you that a politically astute officer who gets things done is more effective than a bull in a china shop who is continually embroiled in battles and gets little to nothing accomplished.  Now, I suspect your term "politician" regarding Gen Milley is more the "swamp" definition, and that carries a negative connotation that I don't think applies in this case.  I prefer to interpret his actions as doing the best he can in an incredibly difficult situation.  And I am not sure I can buy your claim as fact that Milley went around his civilian bosses to reduce the possibility that China might misunderstand our situation, especially with all of the false reporting going on in the mainstream media.   There might well be some CYA going on with the civilians running DoD at the time.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 1:11:40 PM

The generals (aka actually civilians wearing trophies) all said keep some troops and the Afghan army would fail.  Knowing that you take Bidens decision and develop a plan with balls and reality.  They must convince adm to keep airbase.  Instead they just went along and created the mess.  And now only one soldier is in prison.  The one who said hold them accountable for such a failure.  And they just CYA it

Now today Austin is blaming State dept.  The marine asked "didnt anyone throw their medals on the table and say That won't work"  .  Only convenient to say we just go by orders.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 1:33:13 PM

I watched some of the testimony yesterday, particularly about the advice that was given by the military.  There was more to it.  One Senator kept reading quotes by Biden regarding the Afghanistan situation, where Biden said one thing and the military generals were put on the spot to say if it was true or not.  Clearly, Biden lied and clearly the military was on the hot seat.  Another Senator from Tennessee insisted they answer her questions with a yes or no, which Milley did and Biden came out looking bad.  

I will offer this to you - when you are in a DOD advisory position and you provide a range of options to any leader, you learn pretty quickly that you are not the decider - you may present options and pro and cons for each, but at the end of the day, you are not the decider.  And once that decision is made, you are required to execute it, whether you agree or not, unless it is clearly illegal.   Yes, you can fall on your sword and die on the hill, but they will just replace you with someone that understands that the President or other leader is the decider.  

I think that Biden had already made up his mind before any options were presented - he was going to pull out of Afghanistan no matter what his military advisors opined.  I think that while the miliary provided security and the airlift, the State Department was running the operation, and clearly they didn't care who got on those planes - it was just a matter of filling up the planes.  I got the distinct impression that Milley and other military leaders were really comfortable with how it was conducted, but they understood it was not their show.  

Now, I fault them for not realizing that Afghanistan would fall so quickly.  I think they did know that, even if they didn't admit it.  One Senator- I believe it was Manchin, said he had been there several times, talking to the troops and theu expressed the truth - that the Afghanis were showing up, there were ghost troops, that they did not have confidence in the Afghani troops.  But it's not unique to the military that people engage in not wanting to speak the truth and go outside of the approved narrative.  Remember, in the military, there are no "problems", only challenges to overcome.  

Milley stated that they thought that the Embassy would stay open after the big airlifts and continue to work on extracting Americans and green card holders.  But it would appeard that State made the decision to close the Embassy and flee.  

I read an article today and I don't know if this is a direct quote or not, but somehow we went from not negotiating with terrorists, to "must negotiate with terrorists" and the question is how did we get there?  One Senator pointed out that Biden was not obligated to follow the lead of what Trump negotiated with the Taliban, yet Biden likes to blame Trump and say he had no choice.  

I have been a person who really thought that Milley overstepped his power, but I came away after yesterday's testimony feeling a little differently about him.  I think he was trying to navigate events that were beyond his control.  The only sure lie I heard come out of his mouth was when someone asked him about the authors he spoke to, who now have books out.  He admitted he had spoken to those authors, but that he hadn't read the books - well, that may be a partial truth in not reading the books that quote him in Toto, but, we known damn well that he has at least read the exerts where he was quoted and not having spoke up, we can safely assume that those quotes are true.  

I came away yesterday with an unchanged opinion of Austin.  Biden wanted to appoint the first black secretary of Defense and Austin was chosen because of his race and not because of his brilliance or articulation or his ability to lead.  Sorry, not trying to be racist, but that remains my opinion.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 1:40:32 PM

I admire your charity when it comes to the actions of the senior military staff but I think you underestimate what is going on here.  I suggest you look at the media, academia, entertainment and you will see how this is going to work in the military.  Progressives get into leadership roles because non progressives focus on results, talent, etc., not ideology.  But once progressives get into a position of power I can assure you with 100% confidence that their criteria for promotion is ideological and not results.  They surround themselves with like minded people and pretty soon there is no way for other points of view to get a seat at the table.  That has been happening in the military from about day 2 of the Obama presidency and people like Milley got where they are because of their ideology. 

You saw the conversation of his call with Pelosi when she basically tried to convince him to hand her the nuclear football.  You saw his admission that he was a confidential source for negative books written about Trump.  I'm sorry, but in my opinion that isn't someone making the best of a difficult situation.  That is the work of a partisan hack, not some conscientous general officer trying to do his duty to the best of his ability under trying circumstances.  I do appreciate and value your views on the military but there is no way you can convince me to accept your point of view on this one.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Lakengulf
Date:	9/29/2021 1:42:27 PM

I do believe that it would not have made a difference with Biden and Blenkin if every General in the room had tossed their medals on the table in defiance of his decision not to leave troops in Afghanistan.  It was going to happen.  And I do think Austin is right to blame State Department, because I believe that Blenkin had Biden's ear and the decision had already been made, despite any options the military presented. This iwas a State Department operation from the word go.  The military may have been flying the planes and providing security, but the State Department was running things, and those people have no ability to plan.  Look at what they did in Iraq after the invasion.  Common sense does not exist in the State Department.  

What you have seen is that the military understood that Biden was the decider, not them.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Lakengulf
Date:	9/29/2021 1:48:30 PM

I'm just saying it is too easy to hide behind, "well it was his decision so I had to follow orders"

No you take decision and come up with realistic plan.

If you know army will fall and run then use that in plan development. 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 1:57:33 PM

Generals who rise to the most senior positions are politically astute.  No one would ever say that the military isn't a political organization and those who best play the game are the ones that rise to the top.  But I don't think you realize the thing about "the decider" is ingrained in military culture.  Remember McArthur?  You don't thumb your nose at the President and decide to do it your way.  

It is clear to me that no love was lost between Trump and Milley.  Milley would, by nature and training, believe that anyone with Trump's loose cannon approach is a threat.  Loose cannons get fired - remember McCrystal?  Perhaps he really was appalled by Trump or maybe his attitude was "I'm not going to be tarred and feathered" by Trump in history.  We can't really know and historians will decide in the future.  Everyone worries about their legacy at some point.  And even members of the military have a right to vote - to have a political opinion - they just can't apply it in their abilities and willingness to carry out orders.  

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Lakengulf
Date:	9/29/2021 2:03:02 PM

I still think Biden had already decided, the military was presented a fait accompli, and the planning was done by the State Department.  The millitary was just to execute a plan and provide security.  Think about what State did in Iraq after the invasion and what a mess that turned out to be.  

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Lakengulf
Date:	9/29/2021 2:10:28 PM

No doubt Biden was dead set on leaving and blaming Tfump.  In all of Milleys testimony he always referred to his opinion in fall of 2020.  That is no good .  What did you push spring 2021 when biden in office?

And they dont take your opinion.  Surely you have some say in how the best military protection will work.  Close your good airbase and work from downtown Kabul airport?  Yeah that's the ticket.

I am sure I would not have made it in the military or would be in jail with the marine guy who spoke the truth.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Milley said in Testimony to the House Armed Servic
Date:	9/29/2021 2:12:50 PM

Committe, that they had made the recommendation to the President before April and it was unchanged since the advice he had given Trump last November regarding keeping troops in Afghanistan.  But interestingly enough, he brought up my point that you can give advice to a decider, but they are not obligated to take it.  He actually used the term "decider".

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 2:27:29 PM

All that may well be true but leaking politically damaging information about the commander in chief strikes me as a cheap political move by a partisan hack.  Not some noble cause.  Like I said, progressives are doing to the military what they have done to pretty much every other institution they now dominate.  It's not a matter of political astuteness, its a matter of ideological uniformity and that is where our military is headed.  We won't be ready to fight wars but we will celebrate a soldier because she had two Mommies.  Meanwhile our enemies will focus on training their forces to break things and kill people while we dither with political correctness, equity and inclusion.  Watch and see.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 8:41:00 PM

How much time have you spent in the military?  At what level?  What do you really know about the pressures senior military leaders face, especially when having to deal with the likes of Donald Trump and Joe Biden?  Until you walk in their shoes you can't really assess their motivations with any sense of validity. I know you wont change your opinion based on what I write here. I just believe you only see the surface and denigrate people you never met and don't really know.  Me thinks you are a bit too harsh in your assessments. 

Name:	willallie -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 8:56:12 PM

Amen 

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 9:02:27 PM

I remember back when o-BAMMIE had the title of President (unlike today where he is in charge w/o title) that he kind of cleaned house of the real Generals and move political hack generals in do his bidding.  Is safe to assume the current batch are o-BAMMIE suck ups.  Sure sounds like it.  Milley especially!

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/29/2021 11:22:51 PM

Your post is nonsensical.  If they were "suck ups" as you claim they wouldn't "throw Joe under the bus" as MM claims.  

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/30/2021 7:08:18 AM

No. Both fit

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 8:33:38 AM

Based on your reasoning if you aren't black you can't comment or have an opinion about racism.  Or if you aren't a woman you can't have an opinion about issues like abortion.  That is intellectually dishonest and lazy and a familiar tactic of the left and one used by Hound to denigrate anyone that hasn't worked for the govt.  I came from a military family where my Dad, brother and sister served but I came of age post Vietnam.  But they were just enlisted pukes so I suppose according to you they just don't have the rank to opine about this because they were enlisted no nothings.  But even more to the point, I have read literally dozens of articles by actual, real life military retirees (including a good many officers up to general officer) that think Milley should have been court martialed for what he did.  I suppose since they agree with my estimation of his conduct they must also be wrong.  So sorry, while I value your service as I do all who served, I agree with the dozens of high ranking officers over your overly charitable perspective despite my obvious lack of meeting your litmus test.  

And let me be clear, I don't give a rats a$$ about the pressures of working with Biden or Trump.  My God, the man is a general officer in the U.S. military!!  Milley was a confidential source for disparaging information about the commander in chief of the military and his call to the Chinese was treasonous behavior because he said he would provide aid and comfort to the enemy in case of an attack.  They just threw a Lt Col in the brig for simply openly criticizing his military leadership on Facebook about the disastrous withdrawl from Afghanistan.  At least he had the courage to express his views openly instead of being a weasel and doing it like Milley did and he never offered to warn the Chinese Communists in case the commander in chief decided to attack them.  But according to you Milley should be treated differently because he was a poor baby that had to deal with a difficult boss so it totally excuses everything he does?!?!? Man if that is the case our military is really in trouble.  Good thing Milley never worked for Patton....he would have been in the corner sucking his thumb in the fetal position or worse yet, he would have gotten Patton fired cause he was a mean boss and he couldn't take the pressure.  Do you even see how denigrating this excuse is for what he did?!?!?

You really missed the mark with your response and your phony litmus test about who can have an opinion.  Especially since mine is exactly the same as a goodly number of those that would pass your bogus litmus test. 

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/30/2021 8:36:44 AM

A big difference between being under oath and slinking around as a confidential source of disparaging information thinking you will never be identified.  Also, you make my point about their ideology....they stabbed Trump in the back and not Biden because they share his ideology.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Please clarify...
Date:	9/30/2021 9:18:17 AM

Your initial post in this thread stated "Any way you look at it they had zero interest in falling on their sword for the president and threw him under the bus and backed over him."  Now you say "they stabbed Trump in the back and not Biden because they share his ideology".  Those statements seem contradictory.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 9:18:53 AM

I'd like to point out to you that it is a great distance between being a LTC with an opinion in the Marines and being the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  Don't forget that all these retiree Generals calling for Milley's resignation are allowed to speak out without concerning themselves about the loss of their retirement - they are only accountable to themselves. I would give credence to a former Chairman speaking out - someone that has sat in that very hot seat and had to make hard decisions.  

Frankly, I think Milley made a mistake in speaking to those authors, particularly Woodward who has a history of scewering Republican Presidents - he is a jouralist, not a historian.  There is clearly bad blood between Milley and Trump; unless Milley writes a book, we'll likely never know why that is - if it was political or if it was personal.  

I was never in the military, but I worked with military officers off and on for 32 years.  I've seen things, I've heard things, observed behaviors.  It's hard to explain a culture to someone that hasn't worked in it, day in and day out.  As much as you think you have read, until you have seen it up close, you can't really understand it.  I had a colleague who worked at a think tank.  He told me before he came to the Pentagon to work, he thought that the days were filled with brilliant oratory and well thought out papers that were circulated and debated. He found out that it was nothing like that - instead there are personalities, competing interests, politics and the pressure is enormous.  Add Congress into the mix, and other agencies, like State Department and nothing is as clear as you might think.  

I don't expect to change your mind, because frankly, I don't think you are open to another opinion other than your own.  

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 9:45:41 AM

Niether you nor Hodja seem to get my point.  I give credence to them for speaking out......but not for being a confidential source for critical books or providing aid and comfort to the enemy.   And to me having a tough boss is the worst excuse of all for this behavior......treating them like whiney babies is hardly a compliment or a useful argument.

But I do give you credit.  I thought his litmus test was bad but you raised it to a whole other level.  So now only former Joint Chief's of Staff or SecDef's can have an opinion about someone in that role. Wow!  Only probably a half dozen or so living people in the entire country can have an opinion about Milley, et al.  Of course that also renders your and Hodja's opinion invalid as well.  Welcome to the party.

And no, yours and his opinion will never change mine nor the many former military officers who see this the way I do.  But you are wrong that I never change mine....completely wrong.  When I have facts that are at odds with my opinion I change it.  For example, I used to preach social distancing but the science now tells us it is not effective. 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 9:48:01 AM

First, let me say that throwing the Marine in the brig for giving up his commission over something he passionately believes is flat-a$$ wrong.  He isn't a physical threat to anyone and they coud easily begin whatever proceedings they think appropriate without his being a flight risk.  Even if appropriate under the UCMJ the optics are horrid.

Next, read my post again and understand that I never said you are not entitled to your opinion, just that you might not have informatiom available to you that might temper that opinion.  I still believe that if you were to have spent time in the environment you wouldn't be quite so quick to assess guilt and/or blame.  You tend to look at things as either black or white and I am here to tell you there in an unlimited number of shades of gray between the two.

Next, you seem to think I am biased against enlisted military members.  Far from the truth.  I often joke that when a Lieutenant assigned as a Squadron Communications Operations Officer I "worked for" an E-9 who was assigned as my Ops Superintendent.  Especially in the Air Force, officers and enlisted work as a team for mission accomplishment, with both valued for their contributions.  You have never met me and don't know me so you are completely off base with your insinuation that I consider those not commissioned as "enlisted pukes".  

You make some pretty damning accusations, and while they may or may not reflect reality rather than your perceptions, in your mind perception is reality.  But remember, unlike the Pope, you are not infallible and on occasion you might just consider the thought that others' ideas and perspectives have merit.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/30/2021 9:52:08 AM

Your anti-military bias is obvious.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Glad to...
Date:	9/30/2021 9:52:18 AM

One was under oath in front of Congress and the other was done in secret without the knowledge of the President.  One was a statement of fact about what they told the President at the time and the other was ideologically driven negative comments and providing aid and comfort to our enemies.  And to be clear, if Milley did this to Biden I would have the same opinion.....throw them in the brig next to the Lt Col, who has way more courage than Milley does.

Also, I noticed out of all that you only focused on this one issue.  Do you stand by your litmus test or even worse, Hound's raising it to the level that 99.9999% of the American public have no right to an opinion about the actions of JCS or SecDef?  As I said, that is an intellectually dishonest and lazy argument and more than disappointing.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 9:59:53 AM

I'm glad we agree about the Lt. Col but he is still sitting in the brig and Milley is still in his role and you seem to agree with the latter.  I still maintain your excuse for Milley's behavior, if true, makes me worry for our country's national defense.  Again, having a difficult boss excuses what he did?!?!?!?  I'm sorry, but that is pretty thin sauce.  I don't need to sit in his shoes to understand being a confidential source and providing negative fodder for a Woodward book was flat our wrong, insubordination and a violation of his oath as a military officer because he participate in undermining the Commander in Chief.  If things were so bad he should have resigned to make his point, not be a gutless backstabbing source for a politically motivated hit book on the President.  Nor should he ever have promised to warn an enemy of our country should his CIC decide to attack them.....which is absurd on its face anyway.  Especially for the first President in my lifetime that didn't get us into a military conflict.

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/30/2021 10:10:33 AM

Hod….first thing learned in gubment is CYA.

Name:	lakngulf -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/30/2021 10:16:02 AM (updated 9/30/2021 10:17:36 AM)

Take out the anti and look in mirror.  At some point right and truth and decency have to emerge from the culture yall hide behind.  "Well that's just the way it is with the military" is what the LT col in the brig was trying to expose.

I probably should  be done with this thread because I dont have the brains to offer an opinion that opposes the military 

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Glad to...
Date:	9/30/2021 10:28:30 AM

I repeat.  I never said you didn't have a right to your opinion.  What I am trying to convey is that you might not be quite so strident if you had a better perspective of where these guys are coming from.  Unlike the virus there is no science here.  There are many subtleties and nuances that make an "all right" or "all wrong" decision nearly impossible. And there is (almost) always considerations that aren't obvious from press reports, or even sworn testimony.  No sense continuing this.  Personally I am witholding judgement until we know more...in the end I maight actually agree with you but not yet...and maybe never.

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Milley & McKenzie throw Joe under the bus
Date:	9/30/2021 10:49:00 AM

I can't speak for other departments, but that is generally not true in DoD. There isn't enough time.  If there is a downfall in DoD, it is more the "can do" and the refusal to ackinowlege problems - The word "no" generally doesn't exist and there are no problems - there are just challenges that we have to overcome.  In fact, Rumsfelt probably got it right when he said that there are the things we know, the things we don't know, and the things that we don't know, that we don't know.  

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Glad to...
Date:	9/30/2021 10:49:48 AM

OK, I stand corrected and apologize for misunderstanding your comment.  That line of reasoning gets used all the time to denigrate someone's opinion and is a fallacy at best.....appealing to authority.....and probably worse.  I can maybe be swayed on the call to China but after watching what he said and what I have read so far I don't think so.  On the sourcing of the Woodward book I seriously doubt any facts, context or understanding would change my opinion.  That was cowardly and wrong....the work of a partisan hack and not a senior military member of an administration.  If I were Biden, I would fire the guy because he can't be trusted...unless he knows he is a fellow ideological traveler and had to tell the truth under oath.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 10:50:57 AM

Here is the problem I have with convicting Milley for what he did by sitting for interviews with book-writers: to my knowldge we don't know what Milley said to them.  We can read what they wrote but don't know whether they took words out of context of flat twisted his words to make it seem he said something he didn't.  He testified he hadn't read the books and thus couldn't sy whether they mischaracterized what he said.  Maybe he regrets afterward that he sat with them, much as he regretted being sucked into a photo op with Trump during the White House demonstrations, and purposefully didn't read what they wrote so ho could deny knowledge.  Of course he hasn't had a lot of time lately to kick back with a cigar and glass of brandy for some light reading, lol, but he certainly could have some of his staff scan them and report to him what is written.

Milley is no Joe Dunford, the previous CJCS.  Dunford was a classy guy who always seemed to do the right thing, know the answers to questions, and effectively carry out the leaders' wishes.  Milley is not that kind of guy and as the facts, not conjecture, become known it may turn out that he was wrong in what he did - but then again those facts might show he is a hero who helped avert a potentially catastrophic conflict with the Chinese.

You have decided in your mind the way things are and that is your right.  I am not so sure that what you believe to be fact really is, and want to wait for, as Paul Harvey used to say, "the rest of the story". 

Name:	Talullahhound -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 11:12:43 AM

The Marines are... different.  They tend to view things very black and white, and in this case, they are making an example of what happens if you speak out on active duty.  It's silly to have that LTC in the brig, but they are sending a message and that message is "keep your opinions to yourself".   

Maybe, just maybe, since Milley has said that he didn't believe that Trump was about to launch a military attack, he was concerned that the Chinese were going to launch a pre-emptive strike.  We don't know what was in the intelligence reports and will likely never know.  Different countries tend to interpret actions and words differently - sometimes surprisingly differently and it may have been in the intelligence reports that the Chinese were concerned or even anticipating an attack and Milley and the leadership, less Trump, thought he was the best person to provide reassurances.  

There is a lot of discussion about the chaos that was the WH in the days after the election.  Even people that were loyal to Trump and part of his administration have talked about it.  Narcissists can become pretty unhinged when they aren't getting what they want. Trump clearly didn't believe that he could lose.  I don't think he would have launched a nuclear attack but then, I would not have thought he would have threatened to withold Ukraine's security assisstance for political purposes, with a dozen other people on the line.  I wouldn't have expected him to fire the Defense Secretary in the wake of the election either.  

No one is saying you or anyone else can't have an opinion, but as Hodja correctly points out, there are a lot of shades of gray between black and white, when it comes to position papers and decisions.

Name:	MartiniMan -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 12:18:16 PM

Like I said in my first response to you, you are way more charitable to Milley than me and tons of other former military officers.  As for Milley claiming he never read the book, I don't believe that for one second.  Seriously, who wouldn't at a mininum at least scan a book for their confidential contribution?  That goes beyond charitable and is flirting with wishful thinking.  But in listening to his testimony he sure didn't take exception to what was in the book.....he just tried to explain it away as it being a normal part of his job to call the ChiComs and promise to give them advance warning of an attack.  Thank goodness he was in diapers on D-Day or we'd all be speaking German and Japanese.

As my final word, if facts come to light that changes what happened I will gladly retract my opinion that he should be fired and probably court martialed.    

Name:	wix -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 12:25:39 PM

Hodj, you are way out on a small limb, while trying to protect the obvious pride you have in your career.

Name:	MrHodja -	Reply
Subject:	Ah yes, the litmus test argument
Date:	9/30/2021 1:01:00 PM

Has nothing to do with pride in my career.  I was blessed with having (mostly) great bosses and assignments.  Because of that I had the opportunity to see and learn a lot more than a great number of my colleagues.   For the moment, in my opinion, the jury is still out on Milley and there are more hearings going on now that might shed more light on the patriot vs traitor characterization of his actions.