| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 10:57:58 AM
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I've been a patient of my family practice doctor for about 18 years and my wife more than 20 years. Last week we each received a letter that in order to remain on our doctor's patient list we would need to pay $1,500 per year each. In return, the doctor will reduce the number of patients that he will see in any one day and provide less rushed and more personal care with a focus on preventive medicine. Has this happened to anyone or someone you know? Is this a new trend by private practice doctors to mitigate ObamaCare? It would seem an effective approach to eliminate less affluent patients from his patient list and probably all medicaid patients.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Just the beginning
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Date:
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2/8/2012 11:12:24 AM
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Actually this is a growing trend in the medical field where doctors are going to what is called concierge services. It is a response to the lower reimbursement rates from Medicare and insurance companies. THe issue for them is that they have to see so many patients every day in order for it to make sense financially that they simply can't do the job they think they need to. My internist went to this program 3 years ago. One suggestion, the number is negotiable. My doctor charges $1,600 but I only pay $1,200. And he provides a comprehensive annual physical as part of it. This had already started but will accelerate under Obamacare until HHS outlaws it through fiat.
In my conversation with him one of the unintended consequences he did not anticipate is adverse selection. What that means is that generally speaking those that choose to sign up usually need more services than the typical patient. Those that go infrequently typically drop out.
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| Name: |
lamont
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| Subject: |
Just the beginning
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Date:
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2/8/2012 12:51:24 PM
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My Internist did the same about a year ago. I found a new doctor.
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| Name: |
Summer Lover
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| Subject: |
MM is right
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Date:
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2/8/2012 2:28:22 PM
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We are headed towards European style healthcare - if you have "private insurance", you can see a doctor; if not - go to the back of the line. I don't blame the doctors - they have a big investment in their education and training, and deserve to be compensated for that investment. I guess that makes me a flaming capitalist...
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 4:37:14 PM (updated 2/8/2012 4:38:28 PM)
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Some doctors do this so they can get back to practicing medicine instead of running a patient mill. The annual fee is designed to cover the overhead of the practice. What you may or may not know is many doctors donate their time in free clinics and some don't even bother to bill for medicaid because of the reimbursement rates and the hassle.
I lost my first Internal med guy to a concierge practice almost 11 years ago. His main reason at the time was to slow down his practice so he could actually be a doctor. Internal Medicine guys are like detectives and love the regimen of the diagnosis. So Concierge really fits them better.
The real problem with Obamacare is the decrease in Medicare to Medicaid payment levels. My urologist told me he would retire first. There will be a terrible shortage of specialists but like my U-Doc said " You'll be able to see a doctor alright he just won't speak English.
My current internal med guy went concierge last month and a couple of weeks later I met my new guy from Bangadesh.
No foolin'
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 5:00:38 PM
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I wouldn't have any problem with this, if it meant I would have the Drs. attention for more than 5 minutes, and not have to wait in the waiting room for 30 minutes and then in the examining room for another 30 minutes before the Dr. even comes in.
I read an article just recently about Drs. in financial problems -- turns out that being a good Dr. does not mean you are a good financial manager. A lot of them spend much more than they take in, and they don't know how to manage what is essentially a small business.
I've heard it said that you better have a Dr. when you go under Medicare, because once you do, you'll have problems finding one. In October, we submitted a separate claim to our insurance company for something that is supposed to be covered. We are still waiting and every time I check on it, they tell me that it is still in process. If Drs. office's are having to wait as long as this for their payments, it's amazing to me that any of them take insurance at all.
Considering that the majority of provisions of Obamacare will not take effect until 2014, I don't think you can blame Obama care for this.
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Very Much Like a Dose of Herpes>>>
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Date:
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2/8/2012 7:12:01 PM
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our Federal Guvment, that is. Once you let it into your bloodstream, you just cannot get it out again. Trains, planes, schools, guns, cars, food, money, health care,,,, Everything touched becomes corrupt, drowned in regulations, expensive or bankrupt, and eventually, crap. History on this topic is ripe with examples.
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| Name: |
rude evin
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 9:19:55 PM
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Echo all that's been said above...........mine in marietta Ga went this route 7 years ago.........wanted more time to give quality service to the 600 that he would begin with.His major logic was to get rid of the insurance/ Medicare paperwork and he would be more profitable just by reducing office staff. I am fortunate to be an infrequent visitor anyway so I chose not to go. Took me a while and several refusals because I was getting close to Medicare age to find another PC physician. Female from India............love the change............small hands :-}
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Very Much Like a Dose of Herpes>>>
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Date:
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2/8/2012 9:20:26 PM
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You know, every time I hear someone say something like that, I just think about all the things that are regulated to one's benefit --
But, you have the ability to drop out in a small way -- refuse Social Security, Medicare, buy your drugs from overseas (unregulated sources). There are all kinds of ways to move out from under government regulation. What do you think this country would be like with no court system, no military, no police, no public services whatsoever, no monetary system? You may not like everything the government does, but I don't think you'd want to live in a country without one. And you could always move to a 3rd world country without a strong central government and see how you like that. Go spend a year in Pakistan, Eqypt, Yemen, Somalia, Angola, Rwanda, DROC and let me know what you think then. Or maybe you'd like to go to Iran and even Saudi Arabia, and see how you'd feel then. I think you would feel quite a bit different about the US government.
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Can you understand what she tells you? I'm not against foreign Drs. at all, had a great gastroentrologist that was foreign and ran the most efficient practice I've ever been to.
But every time I've been to an Indian Dr., I came away with the same feeling that I get when I am using tech services for my computer...
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Very Much Like a Dose of Herpes>>>
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Date:
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2/8/2012 9:31:30 PM
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And, just another point, how would you feel about flying in planes that have no required maintenance -- they just fly it until it doesn't go anymore. And no regulations on who is flying the plane, how many hours they have between flights, etc.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Very Much Like a Dose of Herpes>>>
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Date:
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2/8/2012 9:36:28 PM
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Hound, there you go again with that "get used to it" attitude. Well, just because some cheap Chicago politician decides he thinks he kows what is best for the country in areas outside those you mention (police, military, fire, courts, etc., which none of us have challenged) DOES NOT mean that we have to just bend over and hope he uses Vaseline. There are valid Government roles and then there are intrusions into the privacy and liberty of the citizens. This health care bovine shinola is an outstanding example of where the government DOES NOT belong.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
But
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Date:
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2/8/2012 9:44:02 PM
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OK, so here is another valid government role - ensuring that this person, who you can barely understand, has the training, knowledge, and skills mequal to those demanded by US medical schools. The foreign-trained doctors may be as good or better than those trained here, but there should be a method to ensure that they indeed are.
Such a governmental role simply assures US citizens that we aren't importing quacks and/or witch doctors.
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Then what is the solution? Assuming that it is true that the uninsured are causing a steep escalation in the costs that those of us with insurance are paying, do you just propose that nothing should be done and that we should just continue with the status quo until none of us can afford health care?
I would never say that Obamacare is the best solution to the problem. But, all things being equal, what do you think the solution is? It's easy for you and I to criticize, because we have health insurance. But what about those that don't, can't afford it, and don't see a Dr. until they are really sick and show up at the ER (where they have to be treated)? Have you ever been to an ER at night? I have, and I can tell you, it isn't pretty. And what about those that end up hospitalized, and then can't pay the bill? Then what? You and I pay for it.
It's a problem. And although I may not think Obamacare is a great solution, at least someone tried to do something. I can remember when people used to think health care was one of the biggest problems confronting the country -- right along with illegal immigration.
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The problem isn't just foreign Drs. Who would protect us from Drs. trained here that are sub-standard?
and what about the drugs from unregulated sources? Are you willing to take the chance that the prescription Drug that you obtain is actually going to do what it is supposed to?
Believe me, i'm quite in favor of tort reform for medical cases, and i have many doubts about the FDA -- but i'd prefer that they are there, vice be out there totally on my own.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 10:30:47 PM
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This interesting concept "prepay to play" is primarily being promoted by internists and family care (GPs) for a very simple reason. The reimbursement system, both government and private payers, structure their payments heavily based on procedures. Internists and GPs do a lot of diagnostics and little if any procedures. Diagnostic tests go to radiologists and pathologists with the diagnostician getting little or nothing out of the deal; therefore, they are left with the patient visit charge only. The specialists that are able to charge for procedures mostly do very well. If you have a problem finding a "doctor", go to your surgeon, gynecologist, orthopedic, or other specialty and ask him to be your doc. If I need to see a doc, I go straight to the specialist I feel I need. Haven't been to a GP in 45 years, and I haven't been turned down by any specialist. BTW, some HMOs in Florida and California pay less than Medicare...just in case you think Medicare is the lowest paying.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 10:36:58 PM
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For all those who complain about Medicare, you can go to a specialist without a referral.
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| Name: |
comrade
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 11:04:34 PM
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Comes back to the more basic question of whether state of the art medical care (as most Americans expect as the norm) is a moral imperative, and if so, who is responsible for that imperative - the treating physician(supposedly sworn to uphold a sacred oath,) or the entire populace?
If the government bears the burden, there is no question that rationing and "adequate" care will become the norm, with reams of propaganda to "prove "how much better, and happier!, we will all be. Just be glad you got a few decades of the way it used to be.........
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| Name: |
buzzbuster
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| Subject: |
Okay
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Date:
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2/8/2012 11:33:02 PM
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Less government and regulations x 10. I know that there needs to be some regulations on some things but not everything when the U.S. population can decide for thierselves want is best for them. Next we will have the Government policing the government. Agh, that is already happening.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Family doctor's patient list...pay to stay
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Date:
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2/9/2012 7:07:04 AM
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You raise an interesting point. The specialists don't turn away patients. In fact, it's not unusual to have a quite a wait to get an appointment with a specialist.
I go to my GP for the basics, but if I have a specific problem, I go directly to the specialist. Interestingly, I notice that in Alex City that this is sometimes met with surprise, as if I'm acting out of turn.
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Oversight of the overseers has been there all along. Can't tell you how much reporting to Congress gets imposed on government agencies. Nothing comes of it -- but once it gets started you can't get out from under it. Most of the reports go into a black hole on the Hill, never to be seen or heard from again. But suggest that it be discontinued (because it is a manpower burden) and it can't be done.
I know you are probably referring to the Czars that Obama has appointed. I'm not in favor of it because I think it just adds another unproductive layer of oversight. But the "oversight" by the Hill has been there all along, and in most cases, it is just as useless.
And don't get me started about "hearings". A real manpower waste of time, creating the "testimony" and either nothing happens or more regulations and reporting is imposed. Congress is a big practicer of the knee jerk reaction.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Okay
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Date:
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2/9/2012 8:37:23 AM
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Consider this for a solution. Provide care for the "uninsured" through clinics and hospitals funded by fed and state governments. These sites become the exclusive health care providers for those without insurance, or other means to pay. Limit the choices of the uninsured, unwilling/unable to pay, not the rest of the market. At that point, there is no intrusion into the lives of the responsible, only those who are desirous of the free services. Centralized health care for the terminally dependent. Those that are truly in need of the services will use them. Those that are gaming the system will soon find a way to get out. This law, written by career beauracratic staffers, passed by the dems, and signed by the occupier, encourages responsible people to forego insurance, surrendering the free market to central government planning and a poorly functioning beauracracy. in an earlier post, you say to refuse social security, and buy imported drugs.... Why would i refuse something that i have funded with an average of 14% of my earnings since my first day on a payroll? Consider also that from 1986 through 1991, i maxed out no later than August, and from 92 to 06 maxed out by March 15. Keep in mind my Medicare withholding was on every dollar earned. Use your MBA and a calculator and tell me how much money you think i should walk away from because i don't believe in continuing to grow the blob we know as the federal government. Mack's description is most accurate. Hodja's thoughts nailed it, Comrades clarity, down thread is our new reality.
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| Name: |
Osms
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| Subject: |
Clinics for the masses.....
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Date:
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2/9/2012 9:09:57 AM
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Quite a novel idea, except in America. We are forced to provide the same care to an illegal immigrant that the president gets--in theory. Only the VA provides such care....to our ex-soldiers, who should be at the front of the line in any system.
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| Name: |
roswellric
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| Subject: |
Well now...
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Date:
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2/9/2012 11:16:45 AM
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there's an analogy you won't hear very often...
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Hound, Thanks for the lecture>>>
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Date:
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2/9/2012 12:57:56 PM
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and, no, I will not be leaving. I'm gonna' stick around and hope that by some miracle a bloated, ineffective, corrupt central government does not bring about the end of a great country. And, if you think a comparison of conditions in the U.S. and Yemen is proof of how well our government works?? You learn that in D.C.?????
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hound, Thanks for the lecture>>>
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Date:
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2/9/2012 2:37:24 PM
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I'm merely saying that those that don't like our government can certainly go experience countries where there isn't a strong central government and see how you like that.
No, I didn't learn that in DC. I learned that by traveling around the world. I got to see it first hand.
I guess you mean to say that you intend to sit around and complain, without ever thinking about how much worse it could be.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Yes, H_Hob
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Date:
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2/9/2012 2:51:01 PM
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I worked in the Pentagon, and thanks to my jobs there, I traveled the world. I've traveled all over the world and have seen first hand how much worse it can be. I've talked to people who lived in countries where their biggest hope was that they could move to the US.
I was in hospitals in El Salvador and Honduras, got to see the dirt floor pharmacy, got to see people with their limbs blown off and talked to Drs. with tears in their eyes who begged us to send them our outcoded drugs for their patients. We started a prosthesis program there. But, it certainly wasn't enough.
And then there was the military student from DROC. When they had yet another outbreak of violence and he was scheduled to go home, he called me in tears begging for me to help him stay in this country, because he felt that if he got off the plane, he would be killed. He had no idea what had happened to his family. (Got with the State Department and they were able to keep him in the country until things calmed down a bit).
And then there was the Pakistani Major who came to my hotel one night to beg me to sponsor him to come to the US. He wanted to get a job in a factory. He was arrested by hotel security for coming to my hotel, because contacts with foreigners were not permitted. And only with the help of the US Embassy was he released.
Now you want to tell me how bad the USG is?
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| Name: |
Mack
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| Subject: |
Hound, Thanks for the lecture>>>
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Date:
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2/9/2012 3:50:20 PM
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The best I can contribute is to use my one vote to get the USG OUT of my daily life. Yes, I have seen bad stuff in other countries. But, I don't need to travel more than 10 miles to witness the results of government meddling here as well. I am surprised that you think all is well and needs no improvement.
My impression is we are in growing danger of failure and more DC "solutions" just add fertilizer.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Mack, I'd be the last person
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Date:
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2/9/2012 7:49:48 PM
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to say that nothing in the government needs to be changed. I've seen first hand a lot of redundancy in government and I think it needs to be reduced.
But overall, when you compare it to major governments around the world. I don't think it is half bad. There are some that are much more intrusive in the lives of its citizens. Of course there are areas, like stem cell research and women's reproductive rights that I would like to see the government out of.
You say you have one vote -- I'm curious about which of the current crop of candidates you think will result in a less intrusive government?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Clinics for the masses.....
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Date:
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2/9/2012 7:56:11 PM
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I wonder if people that have no health care right now would object to such a concept. I bet most of them wouldn't.
You are right about the VA. Our veterans deserve much better care than they get from the VA for the most part. And there has been discussion about reducing health care funding for the military.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Hound, You Don't Get It
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Date:
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2/9/2012 10:44:30 PM
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Its not the "likability" of our Government that we have a problem with. It is the negative movement our Government has experienced since the Chicago Huckster has taken over. We are concerned that the things he has implemented so far may have done irreparable damage to our basic freedoms and alarmed at what might happen should he get elected to a second term. We are alarmed at the rise in entitlements, and fear that any attempt to take those entitlements away could have severe consequences.
Once again it is not where our Government IS, but where it HAS GONE in the past three years, and where it MIGHT GO if we don't get Obama out of the White House. You may not view that with concern but we do.
And your continuous bringing up the military, police, fire, and courts as justification for doing nothing about reversing the negative direction is getting really old. Sorry, but I don't intend to bend over and take it.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hodja -- I do get it
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Date:
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2/10/2012 6:22:13 AM
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I just don't agree with it. Which basic freedoms do you perceive you have lost? I would submit to you, you have not lost any more "basic" freedoms than you did under the Bush Administration. Now, if you want to tell me that you are disturbed about the general trend that government has been taking in the last 10-20 years, I'll buy that.
I think you are forgetting that the two biggest problems facing our country before the economic "crisis" that everyone talked about was health care and illegal immigration. People were furious at GWB because these issues weren't being addressed. And then came the start of the economic crisis (the housing crisis started under GWB) and people moved away from health care and illegal immigration to economics. Why do you think that Obama was elected??? -- because the majority of people didn't like the direction that the country was headed. Nothing has changed. They still don't like the direction that the country is headed, but now it's about economics.
I would submit to you that Obamacare may not be the solution to healthcare, but at least it is something. I find it interesting that some people are howling about it now, when most of the provisions don't go into effect until 2014. So I'd say it is a bit early to decide it isn't working. In my mind, it is a framework to be implemented, and changed and adjusted over time. I'm sure some people howled about Medicare, and now people howl when anyone talks of changes to Medicare. And don't forget that much of it is based on Romney care in Mass.
People are reactionary when it comes to change of any kind.
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Correct assessment
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Date:
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2/10/2012 9:53:17 AM
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Yes, some people do have a high resistance to change, for the sake of change. Others embrace change for the better. The rest are sheep, sheared and slaughtered. I know which category I stand in. Do you?
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hodja -- I do get it
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Date:
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2/10/2012 11:02:20 AM
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Hound, I agree that some resist change and that is human nature. But my opposition to Obamacare has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with a bad law that has already resulted in all sorts of consequences that people who evaluated it before predicted would happen. And it is just beginning......
Why do you think they picked dates after the 2012 election cycle for many of the provisions to be implemented? If this is such a positive law you would have thought they would have rushed implementation. Of course we all know the answer to that....
Lets repeal and replace Obamacare with sensible reforms that don't result in the federal government controlling 1/6th of the economy. The recent brouhaha over forcing the Catholic Church to violate its religious principles is just one of many examples why this needs to be repealed.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hodja -- I do get it
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Date:
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2/10/2012 2:16:47 PM
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I'm in agreement that IF it turns out to be a bad law, then it should be replaced with something that works. In the meantime, a framework is there and I assume that it will be adjusted and changed as time goes on. I'd rather have something in place than have nothing in place, because if "something" is in place, that will become the basis for changes. Just wishing the problem away or ignoring the problem doesn't solve the problem. And it health care still is a problem -- it just isn't the problem of the moment.
Personally, I think the hoopla over the contraception/insurance is a bit overstated. No one is forcing anyone to TAKE birth control, but if a person chooses to, then it would be paid for. And that decision is between that person and God. It is not forcing anyone to USE birth control, which the church forbids. What the Catholic hierarchy doesn't like is the appearance of having it's doctrine challenged by law.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Hodja -- I do get it
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Date:
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2/10/2012 3:48:01 PM (updated 2/10/2012 3:50:01 PM)
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Freedom to choose to have health care insurance or not. Freedom to bear arms IAW the second amendment (more of a concern for a - God help us - second term). Freedom to conduct business without onerous intrusions by the federal government and tons of unnecessary paperwork. Problem is we don't know what we don't know (remember Pelosi's "we'll have to pass it so we can find out what's in it" comment?) and by the time we find out it may be too late.
You mention the "r" word once again. I don't consider it reactionary to continue objecting to what I consider change for the worse. Just because the federal government does something stupid and I want them to reverse their stupdity doesn't make me a reactionary. I am not opposed to change - indeed most of the changes I have seen in my lifetime have been for the good. Example: the Interstate Highway System. No telling how much of a positive effect it has had on commerce. But change for the sake of financially imprisoning an electorate in order to ensure continued power is a form of dictatorship.
So go ahead with your love of big government, because you probably won't be around to see the riots that will come when the US goes the way of Greece. I probably won't either but my kids and grandkids will and I owe it to them to do whatever I can to ensure they are free to choose their own destiny without Big Brother governing their every move.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
[Message deleted by author]
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Date:
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2/10/2012 3:48:02 PM (updated 2/10/2012 3:49:12 PM)
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The problem is that when you are having the freedom to choose whether or not to have health insurance, when you get sick and finally go to the ER, the rest of us are paying for it in higher fees for our insurance and in the services offered by Drs. and hospitals. That is one of the main reason that costs are going up. That and rampant medical law suits. And hey, I support tort reform.
I'm not sure where you see your ability to bear arms eroding. I know Feb buys guns on a pretty regular basis with no problem at all. So you'll have to elaborate on that one for me to understand what you are talking about.
I'm not sure what regulations you refer to that are imposing such a burden in your work life. I'd be interested in knowing what you are referring to. I know when I was working I resented the heck out of the constant interference by Congress into the work we were trying to do. I'm here to tell you that the aftermath of the Ports controversy and the resulting requirements imposed by the Hill via legislation was totally unnecessary. And I've kept my eye on "export reform".
I'm not necessarily in favor of "big government" because I prefer an efficient government. I feel like the biggest imposition of burdensome rules came about in the aftermath of 9/11, and frankly, I don't think they have made us any safer. But, some good has come of it -- we have restored our humit programs and there is intelligence sharing to a much greater extent. Do you think that would have happened on its own?
perhaps I just lead a more insulated life than many of you. I pay my taxes and try not to break the law and to be a good citizen. And they pretty much leave me alone. Now riots? yeah, I can see that if the Conservatives continue to put forth this idea of "class warfare". I really hate that term.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
One Quick Response
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Date:
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2/10/2012 7:57:53 PM
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Sorry if the conservatives accurately describe what Obama is trying to use as a means to weasel his way into a second term. Obama is fomenting class warfare with his rhetoric. Conservatives are accurately calling him on it. Sometimes the truth isn't comfortable.
BTW, if you'll re-read my post my cocern about second amendment rights is IF the Chicago huckster gets a second term. He will try to go around gongress with executive fiats. I, as well as you and Feb, am free to supplement my arsenal NOW. Not so sure that would be the case if the unthinkable happens.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
One Quick Response
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Date:
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2/11/2012 9:37:55 AM
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I agree with the Hound on this one point. Warfare? Look up the definition of that word. I don't think it is being applied correctly. Americans have become such drama queens. Everything current has to be exaggerated as the best or worst ever. Alabama plays LSU during the regular season and it is heralded as "The Game of the Century". It was a pretty good game; it would have been better if Alabama won. There are some examples of "class warfare" in history and those involved war (killing, etc.) like the term warfare implies.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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One Quick Response
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Date:
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2/11/2012 11:27:00 AM
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Obviously no intent to compare it to real warfare. In this case if you think the word is too strong substitute "conflict".
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
What the Catholic Church understands
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Date:
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2/11/2012 12:46:22 PM
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First of all, what the Church opposes is that they are being told they must purchase an insurance product that provides services and medications that are directly in opposition to the teachings of the Church. This is a direct infringement on their rights. The Messiah is once again showing his political tone deafness and if he keeps this up and loses the Catholic vote he is toast in November. No President in the last 100 years has been elected without the Catholic vote.
Second of all, where does it stop? If they can by regulatory fiat tell a religious organization that they must violate their own religious principals on this issue then they can tell them what they can and can't do on any issue. The Bishops, who until now were mostly in support of Obamacare, now fully understand what an over reaching government can do. This is a wake up call to Catholics, even those that personally dissent from the Church's teaching on issues like contraception, that the government is coming for them next.
And it is once again an insult to our intelligence that Oblamer has come up with this alleged "compromise". It is abject nonsense and changes absolutely nothing. The Archbishop of LA has already come out with a letter blasting this latest insult to our intelligence from the administration. Others will be following this week as soon as they realize it is completely meaningless.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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Don't you think
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Date:
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2/11/2012 12:52:49 PM
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that most Catholics use birth control? So I doubt too many Catholics who have supported Obama in the past are going to walk on this issue.
I don't mean this to insult your beliefs (I am also a Catholic) but I find it interesting that a church that has turned a blind eye to years of sexual assault by some priests on young people, suddenly gets irate about this particular issue.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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One Quick Response
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Date:
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2/11/2012 12:58:19 PM
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The word I have a problem with is "class". We don't have classes in this country. To me the word class smacks of the "entitled". As in, "entitled to make judgements about everyone else".
And I've never heard Obama talk about class warfare. I've heard that only from the GOP.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
One Quick Response
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2/11/2012 3:27:00 PM
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Of course he is not going to say it. But he does repeatedly mention the "middle class" in his speeches and differentiates them from the wealthy, who should "pay their fair share". Of course nobody can deinitively what their "fair share" is, because it is a totally subjective number. I would tell you that a lot of the "middle class" who don't pay ANY taxes, and in fact get money BACK form the Government when they never paid anything in, are not paying THEIR fair share.
Deny it all you like, but Obama is overtly trying to pit the "middle class" against "wealthy" Americans, all for political gain. He should be ashamed but apparently he knows no shame.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Don't you think
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Date:
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2/11/2012 4:58:29 PM
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I don't know what percentage of Catholics use birth control but it really doesn't matter. This is not about what is popular or in vogue, it is about the Church's teaching on matters of faith and morals. Catholics that use birth control do so at the risk of their souls but that is between them and God. But if Catholics understood the damage done by the use of birth control a lot fewer of them would and many more would use natural family planning like we did. I highly recommend you listen to Dr. Janet Smith's "Contraception, Why Not" presentation. She pretty nicely lays out why contraception has had the exact opposite impact on women and their standard of living. Anyone who thinks women are better off today than before is not paying attention or ideologically blind.
As for the Church and sex abuse, what the he!! does that have to do with anything?!?!? I expect this from libtard atheists and radical feminists but to throw that up as if it has anything to do with this issue is reprehensible. I wonder if you are a practicing Catholic and at all supportive of the Church in this issue or do you just want to drag up the unrelated issues? I mean, what about the Crusades?!?!? How can the Church say anything about anything because of their role in the Crusades!!! Or how about those bad Popes?!?!? The Church has no moral authority because we had some real rotten apples. See how stupid it is to raise that point?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Don't you think
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Date:
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2/11/2012 7:53:43 PM
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I just find it strange that a church that would turn a blind eye to their priests abusing children would be so upset about about making contraception available via their facilities. I see a very clear parallel. Moral issues, matter of faith and obedience to church doctrine.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
One Quick Response
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Date:
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2/11/2012 8:04:24 PM
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Hodja.
H_Hob, you come across like a frustrated GS-9 or were you not even a GS, but a WG? Is that your problem? You resent anyone that worked in the Pentagon because they are running things and you think you should be running things? What, you were some kind of piss-ant mechanic out in the field who couldn't get promoted? Too bad for you. Some people are just meant to be out turning wrenches. You wouldn't know a national security issue if it bit you in the butt.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
BTW, Hodja...
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Date:
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2/11/2012 8:05:57 PM
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Do you consider yourself to be in the 1%?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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BTW, Hodja...
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Date:
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2/11/2012 8:45:25 PM
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If you are talking about the top 1% of income, don't I wish!
I spent 22 years, 3 months active duty Air Force and have been with the same defense contractor, essentially still serving, but not having somone decide what I'll wear each day, for 22 years, 2 months. One doesn't get rich doing that.
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| Name: |
Casey
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| Subject: |
BTW, Hodja...
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Date:
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2/11/2012 9:20:46 PM
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Just to clarify: Based on 2009 tax year filing data, the Internal Revenue Service says an adjusted gross income of $343,927 or more will put you in the top 1 percent of taxpayers.
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| Name: |
Casey
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| Subject: |
[Message deleted by author]
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Date:
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2/11/2012 9:20:55 PM (updated 2/11/2012 9:21:19 PM)
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Piss-ant. I may not know all, but I know more than you do.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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Not at all
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Date:
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2/11/2012 9:40:08 PM
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The priests who abused children, what few there were, did so in direct violation of Church doctrine. Likewise, Catholics who practice contraception not only do the same but are part of our problem in society. Listen to Janet Smith and her tape if you are prepared to have your opinion changed about the issue. I can tell you it changed mine.
But there is no parallel because the Church never publicly condoned the abuse and the government never told them by fiat that they had to promote homosexual priests abusing children. If they had I can assure you the response would be the same. THis is a non sequitar.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Not at all
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Date:
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2/11/2012 10:18:00 PM
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Obviously, we will not agree on this issue. Personally, I think it is a bit much ado for nothing. But, these days, that could apply to almost everything.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
This thread...
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Date:
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2/11/2012 10:21:29 PM
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has been interesting to follow and most of it has had nothing to do really with the original topic. :-)
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| Name: |
Barneget
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| Subject: |
Adequate access to contraceptives
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Date:
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2/12/2012 10:13:05 PM
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If only Hawaii had it in 1961.....
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