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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 12:09:43 PM
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In their last attempt to destroy America, Demoncrats are determined to saddle America with numerous noxious pieces of legislation in the lame duck session. I hope the American people can finally have a memory beyond what happened yesterday and severely punish them for their actions in the last two weeks of December when they return to the ballot box in November 2011.
I would ask if Dems have no shame but we already know the answer to that. They simply cannot be trusted to have any power to govern......
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 2:37:15 PM
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MM,
-I agree with you on teh above.
-However, I would also add blame to the repubs who are participating in this lameduck travesty. The recent tax-unemployment compensation bill is the worst of all. Immediately after the people voted their wishes in the recent election, these party politicians do just the opposite.
-The nation agreed the spending had to stop. The nation agreed that some sacrifice was needed to reduce the debt. Despite political party theories, most reasonable people thought the solution to our debt would have to be a reasonable combination of some tax increases and some entitlement decreases.
-So what did these politicians put through? instead of some tax increases and some entitlement decreases, they passed a bill of tax decreases and entitlement increases, --the worst of both worlds!
-Pox on both their houses! ---the next election needs a new political party!!!!
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 3:38:28 PM
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I keep telling you guys that nothing is going to change, except the rhetoric. Until we unseat every one of those scoundrals, nothing will change.
Tax increases at every level are going to be necessary. Spending reductions must happen.
BTW, did y'all see that even though the DoD has stated that they do not need or wish to purchase more Joint Strike Fighters, Congress has appropriated money to do so? And that is one of the most bloated programs that DoD has.
What's up with that? (strong LHM lobby)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hound, do you remember this quote?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 4:50:18 PM
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I remember the quote.
You know, I don't think it is all rose colored glass at the Pentagon. When I worked in the field, I used to think that you had to be extremely knowledgable to work there. Then I went there and found it wasn't so. People get so insulated in the Pentagon. An awful lot of people who work there have never spent a day in the field. And then there are the political appointees. But, I will say to you that it is not an easy place to work. The challenges are very different from the ones you face in the field. And it can be a lot of responsibilty, and a lot of chances to really screw things up.
I just fail to see why Congress would want to fund a program that has gotten such bad reviews for cost and schedule overruns. If they really are worried about the deficet, I can't see why they would push to keep this program going.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 5:10:03 PM
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Hound, I was actually referring to START, DADT, attempted DREAM Act, etc. and not the already passed tax rate extension. These are all unpopular and part of the reason Dems were ejected in such resounding numbers. But in their last gasp they are determined to jam this unpopular legislation, along with some RINO's down our throats after they were sent packing.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 6:11:18 PM
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Do you really think the average person cares that much about DADT? I don't. It's really a military centric issue. I don't think that many people feel as strongly about gays in general than they used to.
I think a lot of people probably think START is a good idea. I mean what could be bad about missile control? (BTW, I'm not a fan of most treaties, because they hardly ever have any real teeth in them).
I think of these issues as "political" Washington issues, not necessarily critical to the average person. Now, talking about taxes, about spending, about the economy, health care, immigration. These are issues I think people care about. I think the average person is probably just glad to see them work together on any issue. People are fed up with the politics.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 6:15:57 PM
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Lameduck sessions: In the early days of our republic, after national elections were held, it would take a whole year before the new congress would be seated.
- A lot of this delay was due to considerations for travel, personal business, pace of life, and the technical constraints on all those. Later, as technology progressed we changed the time between election and seating of congress to the period from the November election to the following Jan, only two months, ---filled with holidays.
-Now, it is time to either change the time between election and the sitting of the new congress to one week, ...or passing a law that says that between the election of a new congress and the seating of that new congress, no laws can be passed by the old congress unless those new laws meet some set of national emergency requirenets. There was a reason why the people threw out the old congress
-Today, The people should be outraged at what's going on, yet we are not ---and the republicans are complicit in this travesty!!!! We have become a nation of sheep. Perhaps Jefferson was right on his ideas for nourishing the tree of liberty!
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 7:18:08 PM
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No the average person does not care about dadt. The Commadant of the Marine corps is not average, nor was I when I commanded a deployed wing on a remote island during Desert Storm. Troops 20 per tent with communal showers.. Several guys were sent home.. all of it happened under the radar screen don't even know the final disposition of the airmen.. But I'm pretty certain that the logistics of the situation, nor their behavior was not consistant with "Good order and discipline" in a combat situation..
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 7:19:05 PM
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It does seem rather ridiculous to have such a long wait between elections and the swearing in.
I've read that it is particularly unsettling for those who have not been re-elected. They are stuck in a lame duck session, but well aware they need to be vacating their office space.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 9:31:43 PM
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According to the poll that was done in the military, there was most resistence in the Combat Arms in the Army and in the Marines. That doesn't surprise me in the least, since these are most testosterone driven elements. I'm well aware of all the arguments for and against, having lived through the DADT when it was intially implemented. A lot of people predicted a total failure then too, but I think time has shown that it can be implemented.
Gates and Admiral Mullin have both said that it would probably take a year of training and plans to get the latest legislation implemented. I don't think anyone thinks it will be totally painless. I'm not sure why it was necessary to push it at this point, because I believe in 10 years, everyone will wonder what the big deal was.
Alahusker, I'm not sure what to make of you. Do you really think you were on the same level as the Chief of Staff, Marine Corps? Quite a bit of time has passed since you were a wing commander in the AF. I think things have changed quite a bit since you were out there.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Lame duck madness.....or is it sickness?
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Date:
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12/21/2010 9:37:48 PM
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Hound be careful about questioning one who has been "out there". As one who has never been out there you have no basis from which to challenge anyone who has.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
And By The Way
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Date:
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12/21/2010 10:00:18 PM
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It is the Commandant of the Marine Corps.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 12:02:39 AM
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Since 1993 under DADT, over 13,000 have been released.This to me indicates there are quite a few gays who have served honorably or have avoided being caught. Under the new plan, gays will not be walking on base holding hands or smooching. They will conduct themselves as military on duty and keep their sexual escapades to off duty. I would assume similar to hetrosexual.
Hodgie, calm down. I think Hound has the right under our constiution that you and Huskie served to protect to question anyone who has served. That is why the military report to civilians. Presidents question military everyday. Some have served and others have not. While my service was not as extensive as others on the forum, I volunteered and served in the Coast Guard.
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| Name: |
4691
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| Subject: |
DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 7:26:47 AM
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MrHodja - Can you clarify your position? Are you saying that only those that serve, or have serverd, in the military have the right to voice an opinion about the military?
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 8:21:46 AM
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No, I am saying that one who has not served on the front lines should not question the experiences of one who has. Hound certainly has every right to voice her opinion but if she hasn't been on the front lines she isn't qualified to challenge the opinion of one who has.
I find it very troubling but I will agree with Hound that times have changed and there is more acceptance of homosexuality with the current generation than mine, but I also believe - as backed up by conversations with some active duty Marines I have come in contact with lately through my job, that there is still a significant element - especially among our hard core ground combat forces - that has utter disdain for homosexuals. That is why the Commandant of the Marine Corps and the Chief of Staff of the Army have objected to the DoD study results.
Please also remember that the two services who disagreed with the CJCS and SecDef are the ones with ground combat forces.
I also wonder if the CJCS, in his position and statements on the matter, hasn't bowed to a political position and said "yes sir" to his boss a little too quickly and easily.
In any case it is what it is and the USA and USMC will comply. My opinions, Hound's opinions, your opinions, Goofie's opinions don't matter. It is now the law of the land and we will move on.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And By The Way
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Date:
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12/22/2010 9:23:29 AM
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I stand corrected on the Commandant. And BTW, I understand that he may be relieved for his negative views.
I question anyone who makes these kind of statements. Sorry, but I'm not intimidated by a uniform or rank on a shoulder. But then, no one here actually wears a uniform or a rank anymore do they? Some people seem to forget that. After they take off the uniform, they are just another person with an opinion. And some don't seem to handle that too well. Now, if Alahusker were still wearing his uniform and was currently a Wing Commander, I might be more interested in his perceptions.
So don't come at me with those tired old arguments.
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I guess I'm wondering why you think I should bow to Military experience, when you certainly seem to feel free to challenge my experience whenever it suits you.
While I admire and respect the work and commitment of our military, I certainly don't put them on a pedestal. It's a big military, and one person's experience doesn't mean that it is true of the whole military.
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| Name: |
MAJ USA RET
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| Subject: |
On A Pedestal
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Date:
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12/22/2010 10:09:09 AM
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Whenever I passed by a gun-truck… or a stryker, I placed those young people on a pedestal. The few times I could attend an Angel Flight, I saluted the silent passenger on the pedestal. When blood is on the line for our freedom, I place the military on a pedestal… including those who must order men and women into harm’s way… and some to certain death.
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| Name: |
Yankee06
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| Subject: |
DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 11:03:24 AM
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Reference the above comments on who's qualified to comment on the impact of homosexuals in teh military, especially long-term combat situations.
-Let's be clear, everyone has the right to comment, --but some are more qualified to comment and their comments should probaly, but not always, have more weight.
-I spent 28 years in the Army, seven of them in the Pentagon, four on the Army staff and three on the Joint staff. Based on my seven years in the Pentagon, I feel comfortable commenting on what civilians do there, because I did what they did. I lived it, worked it, fought it, and supported it. Doesn't mean my comments are better than those of some civilians, just means I'm qualified. However, a civilian whose experience working on military issues in the Pentagon, is little qualified in my mind to comment on combat experiences with the same weight as those that experienced that combat.
-DADT in my mind was a chickens_ _ _ policy. It forced many dedicated soldiers to lie about themselves. It forced other dedicated soldiers to look the other way even though they knew military policy was not being obeyed. It was a political copout that made both groups less honorable than the nation had a right to expect.
-I have known homosexuals who have been dedicated, effective, brave soldiers. As individuals I believe they have the right to serve their country and that their country should be grateful for their service.
-However, the impact of open, approved homosexualality in close combat operations over long periods is an unknown, but previous deep looks into all possibilities do not produce good scenarios. A lot of people say it's just a matter of the military settinng policy and enforcing it. When it comes to something as basic to human existance as the sex drive, that position is just crazy. When women were placed on ships and the policy of non-fratinization was explained and enforced, what did we end up with? ---love ships!!! large percentages of teh female crew members came back pregnant. Careers were ruined, marriages were ruined, etc ...and it continues today. The sex drives in humans is second only to selfpreservation.
-In combat, team cohesion is one of teh most ctitical aspects of success. When you have half the guys having sex with each other, full unit cohesion is going to suffer. When you're back in the barracks and half the guys are doing each other and the other half finds such activity disgusting, unit cohesion is going to suffer. When you have the various congressional committees and private committees coming around to see if homosexuals are being oppressed or not, unit cohesion is going to suffer. When homosexuals start to complain about prejudice effecting their promotions etc (or vice versa), unit cohesion is going to suffer.
-Homosexuals openly serving in the military is a tough issue, because of the unique life styles required by combat and unit cohesion beyond what the normal 9-5 crowd experiences.
-On an individual basis, I respect and even support the right of homosexuals to serve their country. However, on the basis of combat effectiveness, I sincerely do not know if open service, with all its social impacts, will make us a more or less effective fighting force. My gut tells me that open service will adversely impact military effectiveness. I guess like many other changes our country is going through, only time will tell if change will be for the good.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Again you misunderstand my point
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Date:
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12/22/2010 11:24:16 AM
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What I am saying is that issues of importance like DADT (maybe not to you but I think you would be surprised at the response of the general public were this openly debated), treaties, trying to extend citizenship to illegals, etc. should NOT be done in a lame duck session. These have all been out there for some time and have been debated and there is legitimate issues with each that need more consideration. If they were so important why did they wait until now? And for DADT, why no hearings? Why no amendments? Why no normal legislative process? I'll tell you why, because a lot of people are concerned about the impact of this legislation and this was pure politics just like how they passed Obamacare. This is the worst of what we get when Demoncrats are given absolute power and they have demonstrated why they cannot be trusted.
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Seems to me that the real DADT policy is the START Treaty. Can't trust the Ruskies. BTW, isn't Putin gay?
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| Name: |
alahusker
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| Subject: |
DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 4:09:27 PM
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Hound, touchy, touchy, touchy...
Alahusker hung up his uniform a long time ago, never looked back nor expected special consideration for military experience.. In this case, I simply offered a personal observation re. the discussion topic, wrong headed as it might have been.. As a side note, I can explain CJCS support for DADT.. most senior Navy officers are gay.. (just kidding, guys)
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Again you misunderstand my point
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Date:
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12/22/2010 5:04:53 PM
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My understanding is that there have been hearings on all of these things. It's not just they were slung on the table and people forced to vote. I'm sure these things have been hanging around, marked up, and a lot of informal discussions took place. Just because there wasn't any oratory -- I think the oratory is really for the folks back home. Most of the time there are very few other people in the room. And the remarks get submitted for the record.
I'm just glad they finally got off their patooties and did something.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
What planet
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Date:
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12/22/2010 5:06:15 PM
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are you visiting from? Is Zoltron sending respresentatives to Earth again?
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I too spent time in the Pentagon. I don't know that many of my former military colleagues would agree with you that civilians have less valid opinions just because they aren't wearing a uniform. Don't forget who the military reports to. Civilian leadership. Unless you are still wearing a uniform, I don't think your opinion on this is any more valid than mine.
Having said that, I share your concerns about this policy down at the unit level. I think it poses a much more difficult issue than the integration of women. There is the issue of trust. I really believe they should have left the whole issue alone, because I think societal norms will solve the problem over a period of time. I'm not sure I think that shoving it down the throat of the military is the right thing. It's a much different scenerio serving in a combat unit and working in an office.
I have no problem with gays (men or women) but even I'm a bit tired of having the issue forced.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 5:44:36 PM
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Considering the subject, Hound's last comment has to be the funniest innocent post ever: "I'm not sure I think that shoving it down the throat of the military is the right thing.*
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
There were no hearings on DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 6:09:57 PM
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There was nothing. Just a bill that Dems crammed down without any of the usual legislative process. Look it up and you will see that this is what the GOP is complaining about the most, and rightly so.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
There were no hearings on DADT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 8:08:16 PM
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Didn't Gates and Mullin, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff testify on this? I believe they did because I recall watching it.
I know Congress would have been provided with a copy of the study that was done too.
The issue has been under discussion for well over a year.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
OOPS.... NT
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Date:
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12/22/2010 8:09:05 PM
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Just Checked
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Date:
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12/22/2010 8:13:20 PM
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Gates, Mullins and the Service Chiefs testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee on 2-3 December 2010 on the outcome of the study that was done on the acceptance of the potential repeal of DADT.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
What planet
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Date:
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12/22/2010 8:35:40 PM
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Did you really spend that much time around the military and come away that clueless at best and non-caring at worst?
Has anyone close to you been killed or wounded in action?
Your mockery of the Major is despicable.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Didn't they make that into a movie?
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Date:
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12/23/2010 8:53:31 AM
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Despicable Me???
Hodja, you are so off base I'm beginning to think you are from Zoltron too.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
And yes, in fact, I have
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Date:
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12/23/2010 8:59:48 AM
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lost people in combat. A good friend's wife was shot down in Colombia flying surveillance. She was 29. Another former colleague, a great guy, helicopter was shot down and he was killed. Left behind a wife and 3 small children. He was 34.
Your comments are just ridiculous. You have no idea who I am, or what I believe in or how strongly I believe it. I suggest you remove the stick from your butt.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Careful h Hob
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Date:
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12/23/2010 9:01:27 AM
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So did Hodja, Yankee and Alahusker in their day.
I think a tour of in the Pentagon would be a great benefit for you too. Maybe it would get the stick out of your butt too.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
TIME TO END THIS THREAD
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Date:
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12/23/2010 10:45:12 AM
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SADLY, THIS IS BECOMING A PERSONAL ATTACK, OR AT LEAST, APPEARS TO BE. CONSIDERING THE SEASON, WHY DON'T WE JUST END THE TOPIC AND MOVE ON. CHEERS.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Winter? n/t
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Date:
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12/23/2010 11:44:35 AM
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Just Checked
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Date:
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12/27/2010 9:34:55 AM
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I'm sorry, I should have been more precise in my comments about hearings. There were no legitimate hearings where all sides of the debate could be presented and discussed. That's what I think of when I refer to hearings in front of Congress. The entire and only premise of the Senate hearings as scripted by the Dem committee chair was not whether they should repeal DADT, but whether a repeal could be implemented successfully and represented an unreasonably high risk to the military. These were a sham and didn't even begin to answer the question of whether a repeal was in the best interests of our military instead of just an unreasonably high risk. That question was neither on the table nor was it debated in a hearing.
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