| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Obama the African Colonial
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Date:
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6/27/2009 10:17:59 AM
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Interesting read from a black woman who is a first generation American. I sure her perspective will really stir the pot.
URL: http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/obama_the_african_colonial.html
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Obama the African Colonial
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Date:
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6/27/2009 2:23:43 PM
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All I got from this article is that the author seems to have a lot of anger against White Westerners. I know quite a bit about Africa, it's history and cultures. I've read extensively about tribal cultures and colonialism. Wrote a number of papers about it in college. And interestingly, my academic adviser for my MBA is a Nigerian -- and I think I know what he would say about this article.
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| Name: |
dvine
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| Subject: |
Obama the African Colonial
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Date:
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6/27/2009 3:48:43 PM
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Well, smell me!! Boy, am I impressed with myself.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 4:56:07 PM
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First its knowledge of everything in DC and now you are expert on Africa. You are an amazing person. But what specifically about her piece from an historical, political or cultural perspective do you take issue with? You tend to be too dismissive of someone while touting your own credentials but then provide no factual basis for your position.
That to me is either dishonest or lazy. Educate us neanderthals (Archie: in this context I mean uneducated or ignorant) about where she is wrong. This is a topic about which I have limited knowledge and would appreciate your perspective. Be aware though that I plan to email the author if you provide countervailing arguments or evidence for her response. I am waiting with bated breath......
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| Name: |
oneshot
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 6:22:27 PM
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you failed to tell Archie what countervailing means....
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Smell yourself
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Date:
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6/27/2009 6:37:38 PM
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I'm sorry if what I said intimidates you. And what exactly is your area of expertise?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 7:20:00 PM
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What are the authors credentials that allow her to make these assertions with such authority? I googled her and did not come up with anything other than Rush Limbaugh embracing the article (naturally).
She provides no proof of her allegations about BO,sr. Did she know him? Doubtful. So how does she know that he was "enraged" and embraced Marxism?
What are her "conservative values" that she got from her tribe. Again, she makes an unsupported statement, but doesn't elaborate. There are a lot of conservative values.
I disagree with her premise that most Americans don't know about colonialism in Africa.
What proof does she offer that he lacks an understanding of "tribal customs"? And if he does, what does that have to do with American politics. As she points out, he was raised in the US. I think many people are interested in understanding their roots (hence the popularity of geneology) and there is a good chance they don't understand all the nuances of their ancesterol customs, but so what?
Her comment "feigned antipathy" -- what proof does she offer? And her claim that that Obama says that tribal associations are distracting elemnets that get in the way of progress. I would say what has taken place in Rwanda and DROC are a pretty good indication that tribal associations are distracting elements. Same is true in Afghanistan and the tribal regions of Pakistan. Show me one developing nation that clings to it's tribal associations that has developed into a thriving nation.
She claims that Obama has seized wealth. In Africa, wealth is seized by tribal leaders as a matter of gaining power and personal wealth. There are numerous examples of this.
Her 4th point makes no sense at all. Post Colonial Africa fell apart for various reasons. In post Colonial Africa was caught between tribal loyalties and greedy despots who often seized power thought violent means. What is her basis for saying that this could happen in the US?
I go back to my original statement that she is an angry black woman who is the one that is mad at "whitey". Maybe she should go back to Africa -- to her tribe -- and lead them into the 21st century. It's time this woman got over colonialism. There are many educated theories about the problems of Africa and what it will take to resolve them.
As for my African background, I was a West African desk officer 1997-1998 and was involved with the first visit by a delegation from Angola and the first defense delegations from South Africa. Additionally, I had several Congolese students who were stuck in the US when the carnage re-erupted in the Congo and I have read extensively about Rwanda because I am interested in the genocide that took place there. An expert on Africa? Not really, but I think I know more than most people.
I wonder if all of you would have been so enamored with the article if Rush Limbaugh hadn't quoted from it? And given that the "Thinker" is a right wing conservative publication -- well that speaks for itself.
In order to convince me of something, you are going to have to do better than cutting and pasting articles from conservative right wing publications. When I see that you are taking your information from a variety of sources and forming your own opinion that embracing whatever RL says, well, then maybe I'll listen. If you embrace this article, you obviously don't believe in critical reading.
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| Name: |
dvine
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| Subject: |
Smell yourself
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Date:
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6/27/2009 8:19:38 PM
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Never intimidated by someone so insecure that they have to try to make everyone think they are intelligent. I don’t feel it necessary to give you my area of expertise because you are not that important to me.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 8:38:46 PM
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You might be taken more seriously if you would cease blaming all the world's ills on Rush Limbaugh...he didn't write the article.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
My goodness!
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:09:35 PM
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Man oh man dvine. I'll bet you are extremely unintimidated by our resident mensa member, Martini Man.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:12:11 PM
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Hey MM, I'm the one who first used the term Neanderthal on this forum, so stuff it!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:13:49 PM
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Touche and amen to Hound!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:27:50 PM
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Oh, oneshot, I do know what "countervailing arguments" means but as an uneducated, America hating, baby killing, s**thead (just some of MM's descriptions of me) I would have found "contrary evidence" preferable. You know it is a little simpler and less pretentious. You do know what "pretentious" means don't you?
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
There you go again ...
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Date:
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6/27/2009 11:39:03 PM
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you only post negative attacks or cut and paste ... you refuse to ever share your thoughts or views only what you heard other say. are you a parrott? no mind or rationale thought of your own. what is it you love about the liberal socialist party? what do YOU want them to accomplish? what would make you happy if they did? come on, you can do it ... have a mind of your own and think for yourself and share it. don't be afraid. I have confidence in you that you can be a real man and have a real thought of your own to share.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/28/2009 8:09:57 AM
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First of all, I did not cut and paste the article. I put a link to it, commented that it was interesting and asked for opinions. Second of all, read my response to your post about your expertise and you will see I wrote I had limited knowledge of the subject. Thirdly, your points are simple disagreements with her views and ad hominum attacks of someone you don't know but obviously do not agree with.
You claim expertise, provide details on why she is wrong.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Are you an adult?
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Date:
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6/28/2009 8:12:22 AM
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Honestly, I can't imagine a mature adult telling me to "stuff it" based on claiming to have used a word first. That is so childish and I don't even think my 13 year old daughter would have do that. I am beginning to suspect that you are actually some teen or pre-teen, maybe a middle school student, that happened on this website.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Hmmmmmm
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Date:
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6/28/2009 8:13:49 AM
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When did I call you a s**head? Did you make that up? You are so angry and immature it is hard to take you seriously.
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The ultimate reply. Which says to me you likely don't have one. Just another _______ with an opinion.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
MM & AU
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Date:
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6/28/2009 8:48:37 AM
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MM, I'm not about to sit here and write a detailed response point by point about why her article is wrong. I would just urge you to consider the authors credentials in writing such an article. Her premises are unsupported by facts. I don't have to refute her facts, but as a responsible author she is obligated to support her contentions, don't you think? And she doesn't.
I understand the reason you like the article -- because it condemns BO, whom I understand you do not like or approve.
And BTW, I notice that YOU did not give your opinion about her article. Since you posted it, I assume you agree with it, so how about YOU giving us a detailed view on WHY you think she is right.
And AU -- I'm well aware that RL did not write the article. But a quick google search indicates that RL apparently embraced the article and read from it, presumably on his radio show. Now, you know how I feel about RL. But, I would have put that aside if the article was well written and supported by some sort of facts.
And for those of you who attack me personally. I worked in Washington from 1988 - 2006. My area of expertise was international and I held various jobs that required me to understand various regions of the world. I comment on things in Washington because I lived in that environment and I think I understand it pretty well. And when you understand something, it frequently helps to be able to put into context what is going on.
A lot of things I did involved the interagencies, and the Hill and WH. My views are based on my observations and experiences.
There are hundreds of other people who have the same experience. Some of them even post here.
I try to get my information from a variety of sources, both what you would consider liberal and what some would consider conservative. I try not to limit myself to one side of the argument, because both sides have good people and good ideas; and they both have ignorant people and stupid ideas. I don't embrace any particular party line.
But, if you find that offensive, well, I guess you can just put me on ignore.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I repeat "stuff it"
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:11:43 PM
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BTW, don't get into my bad habit. Proof read your posts.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
To MM: see 5/24/09
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:20:50 PM
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MM post under GOP thread at 4:57:30 PM. That is when you called me a s**head MM. If you would like to apologize you may do so now.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
To MM: see 5/24/09
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:28:07 PM
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Oh MM, it is I who must apologize to you. You didn't call me a "s**thead" on the referenced occasion, you called me a "chicken s##t". Obviously a much less offensive insult. I'm sorry for being so childish.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Childish and immature
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:41:23 PM
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I believe you are a 12 year old.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
To MM: see 5/24/09
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:44:58 PM
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I forgot to include in my 12:20:50 post my thanks for your indirect confirmation that you did call me an "America hater" and a "baby killer".
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I accept your apology
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:54:43 PM
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I am used to your mistakes and thought I never called you that word. I do remember the other epithets and stand by them. Now if you tell me you are pro life I will retract the baby killer. The others I don't know how you could possibly overcome based on your numerous posts.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Childish and immature
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Date:
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6/28/2009 12:54:57 PM
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MM are you really one of the most pompous (or in words you will understand - most presumptuous) humans on earth, or do you simply play one on this forum?
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I accept your apology
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Date:
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6/28/2009 1:00:24 PM
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I am pro-life for my me but pro-choice for everyone else, especially women. I have never "killed" a baby. Beyond that, please see my 6/28/09...12:54:57 PM post below to round out my comments.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Still not an answer
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Date:
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6/28/2009 1:01:02 PM
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Hound, I'm not attacking your perspective and I think if you reread my post I didn't endorse her piece or even agree with it. I simply said I found it an interesting article. I also told you that I don't know much about the issue of African colonialism and you were the one that professed some detailed knowledge, first about some papers you wrote and then embellished with your government service. I asked for more factual details why you disagree and you refuse to do so. At least when I disagree with someone, like Joe Scarborough, I provide a factual basis for my disagreement. You just attack the author and impugn her because she is a conservative.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
When you are right
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Date:
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6/28/2009 1:03:34 PM
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you are right. The problem you have with me Archie is I back up my beliefs with facts, not emotion and the belief in things that just aren't true. You frankly only toss in hand grenades and add so little of substance to any conversation that I really don't take you seriously. I just like to yank your ten year old chain.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I accept your apology
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Date:
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6/28/2009 1:33:16 PM
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How nice. So what you are saying is it is OK for a woman to murder an innocent baby because its inconvenient. But for you personally it doesn't work. If you support a grave moral evil, you are complicit in that evil and I stick with my original moniker for you.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Au Contraire
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Date:
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6/28/2009 4:21:53 PM
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I never condemned her writing because she is conservative. I asked what her credentials were to write the article, and I asked what "conservative values" she learned from her tribe? Unlike you do with a liberal perspective, I don't necessarily condemn conservatives. I don't agree with their social agenda, but that's okay.
I don't have to defend my opinions in detail.
I have given you a few ideas about what I see is wrong with the article. But why would I bother to refute an unsupported argument? I don't owe you or anyone else an explanation.
She's the one that wrote the article without supporting her views -- and you linked to it and thought it "interesting" without saying what you thought was "interesting" about it.
You have still not stated what you found so "interesting" about it -- other than it appears to condemn Obama. I'm sorry that you can't see that the article is badly flawed as a piece of journalism. I quite surprised a reputable publication, liberal or conservative would publish such a piece. If you are aware of any legitimate sources that further define this "African Colonel" or whatever it is she calls, I would be interested in reading it. I've actually known a couple of African colonels and generals who came up as bush officers under the Soviet influence.
I'm not sure why you are complaining about my offering my credentials as a basis for my opinions -- you certainly do so when the topic of global warming comes up. I think it is a legitimate question when you are claiming some sort of special insight.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Architect
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Date:
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6/28/2009 4:30:31 PM
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If you haven't figured it out -- MM is a legend in his own mind and a "Master of the Universe". Bickering with him is pointless and just wastes bandwidth. Like many social conservatives, the only point of view that matters is theirs and they will shove it down your throat every chance they get (hence the "Master of the Universe"). They are not interested in hearing anything different from what they believe because it scares them to actually think.
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
Architect
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Date:
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6/28/2009 4:54:38 PM
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I know, but Lord I love to jerk his chain!
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| Name: |
architect
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| Subject: |
I say "jerk" not "yank"
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Date:
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6/28/2009 4:57:21 PM
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
I say "jerk" not "yank"
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Date:
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6/28/2009 5:22:27 PM
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Yes, important to make that distinction.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
What is interesting
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Date:
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6/28/2009 5:32:44 PM
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I still think you do owe us an explanation as you have condemned her views and claimed certain expertise. But the fact that I think that doesn't mean you have to do anything and I'll drop it.
I found it interesting because I had believed that Obama was your run of the mill, poverty pimping, community agitating, Chicago-style politics, socialist in the mold of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, albeit from a different background (i.e., his Ivy League elitism). I also found it interesting that the four areas where she correlated her view of an African Colonialist with Obama were spot on. Whether those characteristics actually fit an African Colonialist or whether there is even such a thing is something I do not know and had hoped you could illuminate us given your background. But I guess not.
But you just saying she is wrong is not going to work for me and that is all you have done. In fact, it makes me think her thesis is closer to the truth than you would want to admit....but maybe not. I'll never know because your approach is always to deny the perspective is true, tout your credentials and then expect us to accept it without justification. I simply can't do that and I suppose I will need to do my own research on the topic and draw my own conclusions.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
And yet neither of you
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Date:
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6/28/2009 5:38:39 PM
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has ever refuted anything I believe with facts or logic or counter argument. Both resort to calling me names although Archie is the master of 3rd grade taunts. As for the denigration of my intellect, which both of you seem to love doing, I take it with a grain of salt given the source. As Winston Churchill said about liberals in their later years........
And believe me, Archie doesn't have the mental bandwidth to yank or jerk my chain, nor would I let him do either. He is a mere amusing distraction. Y'all have a nice 4th of July. :-)
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
I say "jerk" not "yank"
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Date:
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6/28/2009 6:28:11 PM
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In Archie's case, I am sure his first statement was more true.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
What I find interesting is....
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Date:
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6/28/2009 6:47:37 PM
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...that MM is refering to the practice of 'African Colonialism' that the author refers to and Hound is arguing about 'African Colonels' who used to be bush fighters. Maybe before you start spouting expertise on a subject, you should actually know what the subject is. Words have meanings!! And what colonels have to do with colonialism is beyond me. At first I thought it was just a slip, till you went on to speak of the African Colonels that you actually knew and worked with. That tells the world that you are just spouting off talking points and really degrades your claim of "expertise". If you don't know the difference between colonialism and colonels you have NO expertise. I am certain that you DO KNOW the difference so it is not like you just mispoke. You are just to quick to condemn her without even trying to understand where she comes from. You and your hubby are SOOO quick to start demanding credentials from anyone that disagrees with you as to be laughable.
It was an OPINION peice and I for one will take the opinion of the one that lived it over the one that read about it as a guvment hack. Not your best work here hound. You made yourself look silly, petty, and mean spirited. African Colonels indeed!!
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Swimmer
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Date:
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6/29/2009 7:58:54 AM
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Did you even read the article? She likened Obama to an "African Colonel". Then she tied his father's rage (and her own?) to colonialism in Africa. Two different things.
Why can't you just admit that it is a flawed thesis based on her lack of cogent examples? And I don't know about you, but whenever I read anything, I ask myself what are the writers credentials and possible biases they might have. I think of it as critical reading. Doesn't mean I reject their views out of hand since everyone has a certain amout of bias.
My guess is that because you can't refute my experience you have to try to mock it. That's kinda low, don't you think?
And MM still hasn't explained to anyone WHY HE thinks the article is so interesting. Given his tendency to provide expansive treaties on his views, and yet has not done so here, I can only think he embraces the article only because it is negative to Obama.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Swimmer
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Date:
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6/29/2009 8:45:02 AM
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As I pointed out, it is an OPINION peice. She is giving her opinion based on her life experiences. She live through the colonialism of Africa, you read about it some 'white paper'. I still take her opinion over yours. It is obviuos you don't like it because it hits too close to home. It pulls the curtain back just a little bit more and you abviuosly aren't liking what you are seeing, but are so mired in ideology as to be blinded to the truth.
She lived it!! Credential enough in my world.
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| Name: |
au67
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| Subject: |
Credentials
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Date:
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6/29/2009 11:04:47 AM
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Did you question Obama's or McCain's credentials?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Credentials
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Date:
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6/29/2009 5:39:17 PM
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Yes, I did. Of course, they weren't some unknown writer with an opinion.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Swimmer
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Date:
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6/29/2009 5:41:27 PM
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Swimmer, you disappoint me. I thought better of you than this jumping on the "me too" bandwagon.
So to you I say "WHATEVER". I have no vested interest either way.
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