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| Name: |
PikeSki
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 10:49:05 AM
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Here is an excerpt from Charles Stanley the pastor at one of the largest Baptist churches in Atlanta (they are the ones that put on "Tthe Passion Play":
I was very dismayed when recently a member of my Church
said to me with great resignation that she was afraid
Obama will take the presidency. These words came from
someone that in the past has been a great prayer warrior.
What is happening was my question??? Why are we Christians settling
for the loss of our Christian heritage, not issuing a battle cry and
falling to our knees and taking
our country back? We allow ourselves to be stripped of the
right to pray at school functions and in school, we have
the Ten Commandments removed from government places and
are told we cannot pray publicly or proclaim Christian
principles, all the while providing public prayer places for
Muslims. We allow Muslim mosques to operate in * America *
funded by * Saudi Arabia **, and proclaim anti-American,
anti-Christian threats and terrorism.
What in the world is going on and why are we being so
apathetic? Why aren't we praying? Our God is an Almighty
God who is waiting patiently for us to raise our voices to
heaven to stop the tide of the anti-Christian actions in
our world today. Now we have a charismatic, albeit
inexperienced, candidate for president that does not
respect our flag and refuses to wear one on his lapel
except when it becomes politically expedient, and whose own
wife and pastor that he loves profess to have strong
anti-white feelings, and we sit back and say 'it is a
given, we can do nothing???' There has never been a time
in 2000 years that we can do nothing, never a time that we
must sit back and allow the evil in men's and women's
hearts to take over our world! We should be afraid, very
afraid because our apathy is leading us to perdition.
It is time for all Christian Americans to raise the battle
cry and take our nation back! Maybe McCain on his own
cannot defeat Obama, but our God can and He will if we
take to our knees in prayer and raise a mighty cry to the
heavens to 'Save us O Lord'. We have God's promises in 2
Chronicles 7:14, 'If my people who are called by my name
humble themselves, pray, seek my face, and turn from their
wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive
their sin and heal their land.' We have the power to
change the course of this election and to keep a man as
suspect as Barak Obama from leading our country to who
knows where with his message of 'change'; a change which I
fear will be away from our Christian ideals, and away from
Christ, and further away from one nation under God to one
nation under Allah.
We are great at passing stories and pictures around the
internet but where are our prayers and prayer warriors
praying to stop this tide of Barak Obama? God parted the Red Sea ,
Jesus was raised from the dead, and we can bring our country back to
its Christian roots and stop the undermining of our country by Muslims.
We can stop our country from bein g 'under Allah' but we must begin
to pray,
to pray as our country and our lives depended on it because they do.
We can stop all these atrocities against God's commands
that have taken root in our country through something as
simple as sincere prayer, a call to God to deliver us, to
forgive us our sins of apathy and to protect us from the
evil that is upon us.
Okay prayer warriors, here is your challenge, start those
prayer chains. Get the spiritual power working on our
behalf and stop Barak Obama the proper way, by calling on
our God to save us from the deception that charismatic
preaching is using to lead us on the wrong path. Stop
those who would take God out of our country and our
government. Raise up good men to lead us and protect us.
George Bush is be ing buffeted because he has fought a holy war
against the evils that attack us ... and we should not be surprised
because a prophet is not honored in his own country. But we
should not rest on our laurels and allow ourselves to be taken
further off the path of Christianity and to have God removed
from our presence in our schools, courts, government and
businesses. Invite God into the fray. Ask that His power
rest upon us and give us the victory. Ask him to raise up
a mighty army t o defend us and to protect our country
as he did in days of old. Let us be victorious beginning NOW.
The battle is His but we must call on Him without ceasing
and unite our voices and hearts in pra yer and fasting.
Please pass this around to all people of prayer that you
know and maybe, just maybe, a more eloquent person of
prayer will write something better and more inspiring and
even the rocks will shout that Jesus is Lord and our Mighty
God is with us and bringing the victory for us and
ultimately for Him. AMEN! *
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 2:11:45 PM
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Whatever happened to separation between Church and State?
If Churches are going to use the pulpit to put forth a political agenda, they should lose their tax exempt status.
When I go to church I don't want to be preached at regarding politics. Just one of the reasons why I resent the extreme Christian Right. They've tried to make God a political issue. God help the Republican party.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Rev Wright
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Date:
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10/31/2008 2:15:36 PM
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That is why BO should have left the church he sat in for 20 years. Not after he started to run on the socialist party ticket for president.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Rev Wright
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Date:
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10/31/2008 2:24:50 PM
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I love your Pavlovian response impulse . I guess in this case "church" automatically causes you to post someting about "Rev Wright". I guess if I posted that I went to church last week, you'd immediately post the same statement about Obama attending Rev Wright's church?
Relax. The election is next Tuesday and you can vote for John McCain. No one will stop you.
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| Name: |
Council Roc Doc
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 2:37:28 PM
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Hound, if we are to be imitators of Christ, show me where was his life non-political? Are we, while standing at the foot of the throne of Christ on Judgement day, going to say our Christian battle ended when it turned political, because surely that's where Satan ends his attacks. And we know he plays by the rules. Get real. You've been listening to too much watered down, make me feel good preaching. The concept of separation of C and S was one to protect the states from a government imposed religion. And no one can convince me otherwise......
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Separation of Church and State
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Date:
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10/31/2008 2:49:10 PM
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Where does it say in the Constitution or Bill of Rights about separation of Church and State? If you read the writings of our founding fathers (Adams, Jefferson, Washington, etc.) you would realize that they never intended nor practiced your idea of separation of God and the political world. Quite the contrary. Conclusion to Washington's inaugural address:
Having thus imparted to you my sentiments as they have been awakened by the occasion which brings us together, I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the benign Parent of the Human Race in humble supplication that, since He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquillity, and dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of government for the security of their union and the advancement of their happiness, so His divine blessing may be equally conspicuous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations, and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend.
Can you imagine the reaction to any politician making such as statement? At least with Obamination you know he wouldn't really mean it if he did. You are sadly a product of government schools and liberal indoctrination and are ignorant to the meaning and intent of Freedom OF Religion (and not freedom from religion).
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:02:29 PM
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If God helps the Republican Party or the Christian Right, maybe it is because they asked for his help via prayer. That is a concept that seems quite foreign to the secular left.
You have the freedom to choose whatever church you want to attend - or not attend at all.
Finally, a preacher is only doing his job if he points out the Godlessness of one group's beliefs and aspirations and exhorts his congregation to support those who do the right thing.
I have been in churches where the sermon's revolved around our Christian responsibilities. This has been an interesting discussion brought on by a post that was attributed to Charles Stanley. I have listened to Charles Stanley, and frankly was suspicious that he would say such things. I went to Snopes. Guess what - false.
Sure brought on a nicely spirited discussion, though.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Rev Wright
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:06:58 PM
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Thanks for your permission.
My response is that you are such a hypocrite. You talk about separation of church and state and your candidate went his whole adult life to church that noly involved itself in state matters, but was anti american.
How you can even think about voting for someone that has associated with these people and had any compession at all for the terrorist that flew planes in to buildings on 9/11 is beyond me. Yes he did make a speach and said "we need to understand why they feel this way". Who the F cares ... they are a terrorist organization and need to wiped off the face of this earth. They care less about human life - our or theirs.
Why would someone that wants to be president of the US even consider having conversations with terrorists. I will tell you why, because he associates with them now with Aryers and the guy from the POL.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:19:23 PM
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You can believe as you wish. But, if churchs are pulpits for politics, then they should not be tax exempt.
I thought that Christ taught tolerance and love for all men. I don't think that God has anything to do with wearing a flag pin (because as you well know, our government has done some bad things in the name of "national security" and I'm not talking about the war in Iraq, at the moment). I guess I could even stretch a bit to not oppose a sermon that talked about a non-political messge about what it would take for the US to be a stronger country morally and ethically.
I'm surprised to know that you believe OB is "satan". I can certainly understand and respect that you don't agree with his policies or plans, but "satan"? In my mind, Satan is the evil impluses of man. I don't agree with John McCain, but I certainly don't think he is Satan.
I don't see anything wrong with "make me feel good" religion. I much prefer a sermon of hope that inspires people to be their best selves, not one that damns them for being their worst. When I go to church, I want to think about how to be a better person and make the world a better place, not about distrusting the intentions who seek to lead. And I feel that way whether we are talking about Rev Wright or some preacher in Atlanta. It's just wrong.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:22:22 PM
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I think you must be taking one of you "feel good" pills. Enjoy the ride.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Tax exempt
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:30:17 PM
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How much in taxes does Obamination pay for his media buys? Not one penny. Why should he be tax exempt and be able to talk about politics and voting? Why are 527 organizations tax exempt and spend all their time trying to convince voters? Why is it no one ever suggested that the multitudes of churches that allowed Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry or other Democrats to campaign lose their tax exempt status?
The fact is that the threat of loss of tax exempt status for Churches only applies to those that support pro-life, conservative politicians.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Separation of Church and State
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:32:22 PM
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I didn't go to government schools -- I went to public schools and surprise -- when I was in grammar school they still prayed in school. And I'm not against it. I don't have a liberal indoctrination either -- I believe in a lot of conservative values, and have supported far more Republican Presidents than Democratic ones. In fact, until the Extreme Christian Right Wing took over the Republican party, I considered myself a Republican. I was a member of Young Republicans. But there are some liberal ideas I embrace and that won't change no matter who I vote for.
I'm not ignorant of Religious Freedom. I grew up in a far more religously mixed environment than you probably did, assuming you grew up in the South. I just don't condone pastors who use the pulpit to further their agenda and try to turn people against thinking for themselves. And I don't care what religion it is --- I'm sure there are a number of Temples in NY where Rabbis are putting out a distinctly liberal voting political message.
Must you always be so negative and disrespectful of others beliefs? You seem to be an intelligent man, but I don't think that means you have the only reasonable explanation for everything.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Tax exempt
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:38:30 PM
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I don't think any church that allows its leadership to use the pulpit to preach a political agenda should be tax exempt. They are supposed to be worrying about your immortal soul not your vote.
It just seems to me that this political agenda in churchs really took off in the 1960s in the US and it appears to me it was largely in the South, dealing with civil rights. I'm not saying that it never happened before and it's quite possible that it started back in the 1940's with WWII. I haven't researched it.
I also don't believe in the Pope adopting a political message either -- so I'm not just against extreme Christian Right Wingers.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Public schools are
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:44:22 PM
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government schools. There are government schools and there are private schools. Interesting that BO thinks his kids are too good to go to government schools and sends them to private because he can afford it. Yet he is 100% against school vouchers so the "less fortunate" can also choose to send their childen to private schools.
Although, they were "punished" with a child so let them suffer .... I guess they should have just had an abortion.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Hope for Minorities
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Date:
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10/31/2008 3:53:27 PM
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Sorry to tell you that Liberals pray too --
I just think that if preachers spent their time worrying about the souls of their flocks and encouraging them to be the best people that they can be then the world would be a better place. I think that encouraging them to support one political agenda over another (and I'm not talking about Hitler here) is not the business of the church. I mean, what interest does the church have in taxation plans and wearing of flag pins?
Now if the church was supporting bringing back prayer to schools (which I am in favor of) or wanted to say that they shouldn't support political figures who support abortion, then I can accept that.
And thank God we have the right to practice whatever religion they want.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Separation of Church and State
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Date:
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10/31/2008 4:13:15 PM
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Just to clarify, public school = government school. I find your concern about the extreme Christian right wing interesting considering the Democrat party has nominated an extremist leftist as its candidate for President and you don't seem to be concerned about the far left controlling the Democrat party (oh, yeah, they agree with you politically so thats OK). For all the alleged control of the Republican Party by religious nuts we nominated McCain, who is no conservative ideologue. In fact, he is so far removed from the base that he had to pick a VP just to get them on board.
I assume given your position you would expect the Rev. Jesse Jackson to shut up. I would expect you to rebuke any get out the vote drives in predominantly black churches in every large city in the U.S. and demand that they not use church vans to drive people to the polls which they do by the thousands. But then again, they are for your guy so it is probably OK. You see, I don't care if they do all those things nor do I care if Dr. Stanley sends out such a letter. Nor do I care if Catholic Bishops teach their flocks that abortion is a grave moral evil and any real Catholic would never vote for a pro-abortion candidate, regardless of party affiliation.
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
My $.02 As Usual
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Date:
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10/31/2008 5:58:57 PM
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I find the lack of comments by Catholics on Joe Biden either pro or con to be surprising given his stance on abortion. Likewise, I have not read nor heard any outcry about electing a Catholic VP. It is nice that the issue is not an issue and speaks well for our Country. His religion seems to be a non issue. Maybe, I have just missed it in the media.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
Biden is a CINO
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:10:07 PM
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Catholic in Name Only. Actually he and Pelosi have been seriously schooled by dozens of Bishops on their abysmal representation of the Church's position on life issues. The Bishops have been more outspoken than ever before because unlike past elections, the politicians have only stated their position while not misrepresenting the clear, unabiguous and eternal teaching of the Church on life issues. Chaput, Rigali, and many others have been very courageous. Far too many have kept silent.
I think Biden and Pelosi learned a hard lesson with their comments that it is one thing to personally dissent from the Church on these issues at grave risk to your soul. It is quite another to mislead Catholics on what the Chruch teaches. Both have kept their mouths shut as of recently. It is also a bigger issue in the NE and Midwest than the South because of the larger Catholic populations and the abundance of supposedly "Catholic" politicians. I have no doubt that their stupidity will cost Obama some of the Catholic vote, which is usually majority Democrat. How much remains to be seen.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
I would agree
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:12:25 PM
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that it is good that Biden simply being a Catholic is not an issue. Of course, no one thinks that a marginal Catholic like him is going to take directions from Pope Benedict. But I think it also reflects a lessening of the anti-Catholic bias.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Separation of Church and State
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:28:47 PM
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I'm not a hypocrite -- I am a thinking Independent person who doesn't agree with John McCain on some of his issues, primarily what he wants to do with Iraq. There are a some things I don't agree with Obama on either.
I do not consider Obama an "extreme" left wing candidate. If you do, you know nothing about the left wing.
I'm not sure I agree that a public school is a government school, but for the sake if the discussion - okay. I feel like I got a pretty even education at a public school. The most controversial thing I remember happening was two teachers holding a debate on the origins of life -- creationism vs. the big bang. In the last couple of years I attended an interesting discussion seminar given by the Aspen Institute that was hosted by the Federal Executive Institute. It was a month long, so we covered a lot of discussion ground about the constitution, leadership, justice, and freedom. It was a diverse group. Funny, there was a lot of disagreement, but I don't remember it resorting to name calling.
And yes, I would like Jesse Jackson to shut up. Al Sharpton too. And I don't have a problem with church vans being used to drive people to the polls, as long as they are not being peached to while they are being driven and told whom to vote for. I think it is good when a church provides a community service.
It doesn't bother me when people disagree with me. I think that is what makes for interesting discussion. I think name calling is a little sophmoric though.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
OMG, read a history book!!
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:31:01 PM
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And not some 'revisionist history' by some pansy liberal that has to show how horrible the U.S. has been since the beginning. Politics and relegion met in the 1960's or maybe the 1940's? How about since the beginning of time. More wars have been fought over religion, than any other issue, EVER! There was this little conflic tcalled the Crusades you may have heard of. And that is just the one
This country was founded and made into the greatest nation on the planet over religion. Gawd, how do live by Kool Aide alone?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Rev Wright
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:42:26 PM
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So, I guess you would be in favor of just bombing the Middle East to simtherines because of 9/11? Kill em all and let God (or Allah) sort them out?
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
My $.02 As Usual
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:45:25 PM
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I haven't heard anything about it either. And I haven't heard any of the non-Christians in this country complaining about the Christian beliefs of the candidates. As far as I know, the Republicans haven't bombed the Democratic headquarters either, although I guess that could still happen....
It really is a wonderful country.
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| Name: |
MartiniMan
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| Subject: |
As if that has happened
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:50:03 PM
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Unlike Norm Coleman's house being vandalized and McCain campaign offices being vandalized.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
OMG, read a history book!!
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Date:
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10/31/2008 6:53:25 PM
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DUDE!!, you mean you can actually read? I'd never guess it from your posts. Now if you could just have an original thought....
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| Name: |
GoneFishin
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| Subject: |
As if that has happened
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Date:
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10/31/2008 7:45:56 PM
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In addition to Colemans home, similar words were found at the homes of three other Republican members of Congress -- Reps. John Kline, Michele Bachmann and Jim Ramstad.
Additionally, two Democratic politicians were targeted with graffiti, according to authorities: Sen. Amy Klobuchar and Rep. Keith Ellison.
Graffiti knows no political party.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Rev Wright
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Date:
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10/31/2008 7:47:33 PM
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Well, in the Cold War we used to say nuke 'em 'til they glow and use their a $ $ es for runway lights
:>)
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
OMG, read a history book!!
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Date:
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10/31/2008 7:49:17 PM
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That's it, shoot the messenger and ignore the message....
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
OMG, read a history book!!
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Date:
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10/31/2008 8:48:41 PM
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And the message is what? Statement of the obvious? We were discussing churches in the US, I believe.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
As if that has happened
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Date:
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10/31/2008 8:55:57 PM
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I shouldn't have said that. It's really not appropriate for humor. There are way too many nuts running around who would contemplate such a thing. I worry about voting place violence. It's one thing to argue politics with words, I'd hate to think anyone would do it with a gun or a bomb.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
OMG, read a history book!!
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Date:
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10/31/2008 9:25:54 PM
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Let me see...as a Guvamint retaree you are really smart and ought to be able to figger it out.....if'n ye wanted to, that is.
But you don't want to so you just attack the messenger.....
Do you really want to take an unbiased, thorough look at religion and where it is being used and misused? There's a lot of laundry out there.....and it ain't all been washed lately!
Preachers can make observations about current events that go against God's will. Blatant support for, or against an individual is over the top (and if you will see another of my posts, the text attributed to Charles Stanley, an upstanding Christian leader WAS NOT HIS WORDS. Check Snopes.).
For what it is worth I would not attend a church that abused its tax status as you have suggested some do. Its my right to walk away (and I would), just as it was Obama's right to walk away from Wright's church when he spouted the anti-American venom. Maybe I have better judgment that Obama (that is a scary thought). I just don't aspire to foist my beliefs on the rest of the nation.
Nasreddin Hodja
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Excuse me, but I am NOT your..
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Date:
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11/1/2008 12:16:08 AM
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....husband. I can complete sentences. You should give him some reading and writing lessons.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Attacks
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Date:
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11/1/2008 11:04:18 AM
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on america and innocent people need to be paid for. Why should america live in terror. We "free nations", we do not take land, we do not control the governments of the nations we free.
You make me sick.
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| Name: |
Talullahhound
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| Subject: |
Attacks
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Date:
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11/1/2008 2:36:06 PM
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Well, you make me sick too. You are so incredibly ill-informed. I can't believe anyone listens to you.
You have no idea what you are talking about
9/11 was a tragedy, but while the people who lost their lives were innocent, our government implemented policies and operations that went towards creating the hatred that was used against us. I suggest you start reading before you run your mouth again. Oh, that's right, if YOU say it, no one should question it. You just go wrap yourself in your American flag with your "heros", and I hope no one that you care about pays the price in the future.
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| Name: |
water_watcher
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| Subject: |
Attacks
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Date:
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11/2/2008 6:41:00 AM
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Had Clinton done his job when we attacked multiple times, 9/11 would not have happened. Bush did and we have not been attacked again. Now you liberals want to say ... maybe they will not do it again. Wrong, terrorists want to destroy capitalist societies. You should read. With BO they may get their wish.
Biden is right ... BO will be tested and he WILL fail. The terrorists will see they can walk all over us again.
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Blame America FIRST!!
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Date:
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11/2/2008 8:08:58 AM
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| Name: |
Swimmer27
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| Subject: |
Blame America FIRST!!
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Date:
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11/2/2008 8:14:11 AM
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Typical left wing nut, IT IS OUR FAULT THEY HATE US!! What BS. What was the reason for Islamo Facsism BEFORE the United States was even FOUNDED. Islam wanted to and activley purues WORLD domination even then. ther whole religion is based on converting all other to Islam and those that refuse to be converted areto be KILLED or ENSLAVED. These are the words of the prohet mohammid, not mine. So how do you blame the U.S. for something that started in the middle ages.
I stand corrected, you are as dumb as your husband, but at least you can write in complete sentences.
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| Name: |
MrHodja
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| Subject: |
Partially True
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Date:
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11/2/2008 8:48:55 AM
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US policies haven't always been the most upstanding and outstanding....but they were considered to be (at the time) in the best interest of the US.
Now, as to other, possibly more fundamental reasons for the Islamic terrorists' motivations.
Look at their socisety. They have marginalized half their population - their women - by making them third-class citizens. Thus, they have fallen far behind the societies (like the US) that make use of their ENTIRE populations for arts, literature, and productivity in the business world. I believe one of the fundamental reasons they hate the US is because they are jealous (sp?) of us, our prosperity, and the mobility that our society brings to ALL of its citizens.
They refuse to look introspectively at why they have fallen so far behind, and thus strike out at the most convenient target - the US.
We also are a very tolerant society - allowing many religions, sexual lifestyles, the ability to seek a better lot in life - all things they don't have. They are exceptionally intolerant, with the extremists' position being that every person should convert to Islam or die. I don't hear even the most strident conservative Christians advocating anything like that.
The only change in US policy that will satisfy these criminals (even the Geneva Conventions do not allow killing of innocent civilians in war) is foroure entire country to convert to Islam, and for us to subjugate every woman to a life of servitude and ignorance. It is obvious that no amount of talking will change their minds (warped as they are), so we must use force to make them understand that we aill not allow that to happen.
While I personally am troubled with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the free world had to put the Islamic world on notice that there is a limit and we are willing to fight and die to maintain our way of life. Yes, we have lost a lot of good men (and women) in Iraq, and will never know for sure whether losing those troops saved us anything here, but it did draw a line in the sand. Maybe in the wrong sand box, but it drew a line nonetheless.
Nasreddin Hodaj
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MartiniMan
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No worries
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Date:
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11/2/2008 10:14:12 AM
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We get your point but if you look at the preponderence of misdeeds there is no doubt that Republicans get the more than their share, but as GF points out it is equal opportunity. And we do have evil idiots like the skinheads recently arrested in their plot against Obama. And finally, I seriously doubt that anyone on this forum will take your post as an imprimatuer to do anything as we're mostly a bunch of middle-upper middle class, gray haired fat guys who go to Church regularly and eat to much red meat (I apologize in advance if I misrepresented any of my fellow posters). :-)
Now if this were a skinhead, white supremacist forum you might have another effect altogether.....
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Swimmer27
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Hey,
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Date:
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11/2/2008 12:47:12 PM
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I resemble that remark!!!
Well except the middle class part, I am FILTHY RICH.
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Talullahhound
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Partially True
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Date:
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11/2/2008 2:26:48 PM
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You make some good points; however, not all Islamic countries are extreme in their treatment of women. I had a Jordanian classmate of mine point this out to me -- that there are many interpretations of the Koran and that some of what we see as the treatment of women is their particular "culture" and not required by Islam. Jordan is a good example of a moderate Middle Eastern state. Until radical Muslims took over, Iran was very progressive in their treatment of women.
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Talullahhound
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Partially True
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11/2/2008 2:46:35 PM
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I would also say that the vast number of the Middle East population has never been to the US -- they only know what they have seen in movies or been told. That is one of the things that our military-to-military relationships do -- they allow foreigners to come to our country to live here while they attend military courses, and they get a chance to see what the US is about. Unfortunately, these people are not the poorest of the poor who have been indoctrinated in the extremist retoric.
On a trip to Pakistan one time, I had an PK Army major show up at my hotel (this was a huge no-no for him and he could have gotten in a lot of trouble had I made an issue) to beg me to sponsor him to go to the US. I asked him what he thought he would do for a living once he got here. He told me that he thought he would work in a factory and make a lot of money.
I have found that in the more restrictive societies in the Middle East, the men are very curious about Western women. During breaks in meetings, they would always want to talk to me and ask me questions -- a lot of them about my husband "letting" me work and travel. In Saudi, the Embassy would have to prepare a letter for me to present at hotels I stayed in that said that I had my husband's permission to stay there. The other thing that would drive me crazy was having them stare at me. They don't usually see women traveling alone. I once was in a meeting with a Pakistani General and when his office boy brought in the tea, he dropped the tray because he had never seen a Western woman in person before.
When I was working, I was involved in the hosting of two delegations from Africa -- one from Angola and one was the first official military delegation from South Africa. They had all kinds of pre-conceived notions about the US from their years of alliance with the Russians. These were some pretty senior people, yet, most of them had never been to the US or Europe and a lot of them came up through the ranks as bush fighters. They thought that everyone in the US would try to tell them how to conduct their affairs, and that we all lived in McMansions. I think they thought that the Secretary of Defense was actually the Devil, and that we would embarass them and treat them like dirt. I think we changed some minds that trip -- and they loved Walmart. Actually, all of the foreigners from Africa, and the Middle and Near East I've dealt with love Walmart and always want to shop there.
There is a lot of ignorance about the US. And I'm sorry to say that I think there is a lot of ignorance here about them. Neither of us is as bad as the other thinks.
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The US does not fly planes in to buildings and set bombs and blow up trains. The US "frees" countries and comes to their defense.
Had Clinton "responded" to the first World trade center attack, or the several others that followed, we would not have had over 3,000 innocent lives lost.
You should be thanking and praising George Bush for his response everyday that there has not been another attack in the US. Had it been the past passive response they would have continued to plan more.
They will "test" BO ... I can't wait to see his response.
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I have traveled the world as well. And for the most part the US has been highly respected under W.
Do you honestly believe if we no longer are the military power that we are and we "just talk and listen" to the extremist that hate us, all will be fine? These extremist hate the freedoms we have so they want to destroy our way of life and culture.
Do you think the USSR would have fallen and democracy created had Regan not built up out power after Carter tore it down?
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I agree that Buxh made the right move in cleaning the Taliban out of Afghanistan. I only wish that instead of embarking on Iraq, he had devoted the resources to Afghanistan and cleaning up the Kyber Pass area of Pakistan (instead of making Pakistan our ally and having them dictate to us that we couldn't go there). That area of Pakistan is not governed by the Pakistani government and that's where the bad guys hang out. It's a lawless place.
I'm not sure I agree that the US "frees" other countries. What right do we have to go in and "free" other countries unless we are asked to do so? Can you tell me an example of where this has successfully happened? I think it was admirable when we went into Kuwait in the first Gulf War, and we did so at the request of the Kuwaiti government. Are you thinking of Panama? Or our counter-drug activities and anti-guerilla activities in Central and South America? I think we did some good things there, but I don't think but we were working largely with the legitimate governments in those places. I had a friend of mine's wife was killed flying counterdrug surveillance missions in Colombia. But I don't think the average American knew a lot about what we were doing there.
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And you are right, we don't fly planes into buildings or bomb innocent civilians.
And I agree with you that Clinton should have done more after the first bombing of the WTC. I absolutely agree with you that we can't let aggression against us go. We should have done more when they bombed the Cole and we should have done more when they hit our Embassies and when they attacked our compound in Saudi Arabia. At that time, we let others "investigate" these things.
Americans are targets, no question. Everytime I've gone anywhere I got briefings before going and when I got there about threats to Americans and what to do about them. It's no joke.
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No, on all accounts. Because we have a strong military that can back us up when we need them to, we have the luxury of being able to talk. Don't misunderstand me -- I'm not advocating talk in lieu of military action when it is warranted. I don't think we would have been able to talk the Taliban out of sponsoring terrorist training camps. But talking to Iran and talking to North Korea? I don't have a problem with that.
And no, I think Reagan was spot on with the Soviets. I think Reagan was a good example of the right man at the right time for our country.
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I don't know if I think the US is "repected" under Bush, or maybe it's just Bush they don't respect. I think foreigners approved of his response to 9/11, but beyond that, not so much. I think he's somewhat of a joke, unlike other Presidents we've had.
I have to tell you that in all the years I traveled to foreign countries I never felt not respected. I have to say that even when they weren't happy with our policies or decisions, I found most of the people very warm and friendly. Of course, I wasn't doing business with Al Quada. But, I think most foreigner admire the American spirit and they like our lack (as a society) of pretention and social class. Even the ones that come with reservations (definitely true of the Angolans and the South Africans), they find out that as people we are friendly and open and willing to discuss almost anything. One of the things the Defense Department does for all the visiting exchange delegations is take them on a tour of Washington and give them a sense of our history and why things are important to us. I think it makes an impression on them about who we are as a people.
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